Rott attack - on ME!

[Ellie]

Didn't know there was a zillion people in the world let alone that you know. Interesting.

I'm disagreeing with you and you are verbally attacking me. I clearly used the term 'zillions' as a figure of speech. Please, feel free to disagree with me, as I do you, but that was uncalled for.

I spend a lot of time at off-leash dog parks and the humane society and know many vets and trainers. They do not love these breeds because they are pretty, the love them for their personalities.

Said I will not own one, never said they should be banned. If I did it was i nthe middle of a rant I retract it with apologies.

whoa, buddy, I never said you did. I was speaking to a larger problem engendered by your stated belief set. In Denver recently, pit bulls with no history of violence or owner irresponsibility were, by law, confiscated from families and put down with no temprament tests. A clear violation of the 4th ammendment.

You also don't hear about it cause they don't latch on and maul people they nip or give a bite or two not maul.

If you read the temprament testing info, they are not talking about nipping, they are talking about dogs that have tempraments that make them dangerous. And actually, there have been many maulings and killings by various breeds, from yorkshire terrier to labrador retriever.

A mastiff looks like a pit? Ive never seen a mastif that looks like a pit. I've also never exactly noticed a mastiff to be the most populat dog on the block.

All bulldogs are a mastiff breed. Pit bulls are a mix of terrier and bulldog, among other things, and thus pits are considered a mastiff breed. I believe that some street breeders are adding mastiff variants to pit bulls to get the BIG block headed bully boys you see. I'm thinking specifically of Presa Canarios, Dogo Argentinos, etc. We see a lot of these breeds around here, they probably aren't as popular in the rest of the country.

My point is that a breed is not a static thing, it is a changing, morphing entity, and a human construct at that. A characteristic can be bred in and bred out. A characteristic may or may not breed 'true,' which is to say that you could breed two pointers and end up with a dog that won't point. Breeding just isn't as cut and dry as you seem to believe.

Finally, you are wrong about violence being bred into pits. Gameness is bred into pits. You can read more about this on the UKC and AKC websites.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

When a labrador or a collie attacks someone it doesn't make the news, but by God a "pit bull" just looks at someone and there's a news truck there.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that it's probably that a lab or collie has nowhere near the jaw pressure of a rott, and not even a fraction of that of a pit. Ya think?

These dogs should be only in the hands of somebody that can handle them. Since nobody can handle them if they are determined.........well

And after witnessing the destruction wrought by in my area, by these sweet loving pets that "never even thought of hurting anybody before this"
you'll never change my mind.

 

[Ellie]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that it's probably that a lab or collie has nowhere near the jaw pressure of a rott, and not even a fraction of that of a pit. Ya think?

These dogs should be only in the hands of somebody that can handle them. Since nobody can handle them if they are determined.........well

You have stats on that, Stevie-Ray? I don't have to convince or not convince you, facts are for people who haven't already made their minds up.

Here is the fact: All big dogs are dangerous. All big dogs could kill an unarmed human.

I can handle my pit. She's had scuffles at the dog park. She won't start a fight, but won't back down if attacked. When this happens, one sharp yell from me and she disengages and comes running. Further, I carry a breaking stick just in case of an emergency.

 

[Lupinus]

I spend a lot of time at off-leash dog parks and the humane society and know many vets and trainers. They do not love these breeds because they are pretty, the love them for their personalities.

Yeah that some have. I agree the temperment of most of them is great. But I don't trust them to not snap. See how much they love their personality when one snaps jumps out of a window and mauls someone. Seen it first hand? I have. Give it another 10-15 years of responsible breeding to get them more geneticly in line with a safe pet and then heck you just might see a rottie in my home. But right now? I personally don't trust them.

In Denver recently, pit bulls with no history of violence or owner irresponsibility were, by law, confiscated from families and put down with no temprament tests. A clear violation of the 4th ammendment.

And I don't agree with that. What I do agree is enforcing that the area the pit bull is to be kept in is secure and the dog can not escape it and 100% leash laws when not in your home or in the enclosure. You violate it you loose your dog and you loose money with a fine. That I am in agreement with, not a blanket confiscation. You have the right to own it and I have the right to know I can walk my dog on a sidewalk without your unproperly restrained dog attacking me jsut cause he is a male dog doing it's thing.

And actually, there have been many maulings and killings by various breeds, from yorkshire terrier to labrador retriever.

Any dog can hurt you, that doesn't mean they have a genetic disposition to having a higher liklyhood of violence.

As to your mastiff comments that is true. Mastiffs, Rotts, Greater Swiss Mountian, St. Bernard, and a few others share common ancestory with the Mollasian the Roman War dog which was a large mastiff like dog. Selective breeding got out most of the aggresivness for breeds like the Mastiff (the more tight and less droopyfaced ones likly being the closest modern representation minus the coloring and temperment), Swissy, and St. Bernard. Still dominant dogs that are protective but not aggressivly so. Dogs like the Rott though had it kept into them and the agresivness not bred out of them that didn't start untill relativly recently. I say eventualy I jsut might own a rott because that genetic aggresivness CAN be bred out to lesser levels that we see in dogs like the Swissy (since they share common ancestory from the same breed), but to me it hasn't gotten there yet with the Rott. And even further so with dogs like pits. Im sure some are fine with their bloodlines but that doesn't mean I trust the average pit I see on the street. Still never seen a pit I would mistake for a mastiff or anything close to a mastiff.

My point is that a breed is not a static thing, it is a changing, morphing entity, and a human construct at that. A characteristic can be bred in and bred out. A characteristic may or may not breed 'true,' which is to say that you could breed two pointers and end up with a dog that won't point. Breeding just isn't as cut and dry as you seem to believe.

I agree, but it simply isn't there yet in the three dogs I say I wouldn't allow in my home. Rotts are close, pits and dobs have a ways to go. As for the it not being a sure thing I agree but it is highly likly. You take a herding dog and put it with a group of children and with no training the odds are it isnt letting one of those kids wander off. You take a pointer odds are it will give similer to a trained pointer without training. My friend has little wiener dogs, things constantly bring home rabbits. Not mice, not birds, not squirrles. Wont even look at them twice if they sit infront of the dog. But you take a rabbit or something else and run it into a hole and you cant keep that dog quite. Genetic traits are jsut that. You can breed them there but it is still underlying. Problem is in some aggressive breeds it is still at a level where they will snap.

Finally, you are wrong about violence being bred into pits. Gameness is bred into pits. You can read more about this on the UKC and AKC websites.

I beg to differe, maybe my definition of violent traits and thiers are two different things. To me an animal bred spacificly to fight and kill other animals has it bread into them to be violent. Go back to a time when pits were still commonly used to fight in pits. Selective breeding when on then too. Now if you are breeding a dog to fight what one you going to breed? The timid one that rolls over or the aggresive one that will rip something elses head off? Aggresivness and violence were bred into these dogs for many, many more generations then it has otherwise.

 

[vynx]

I think an important point here is that the Rot's owner BEATS him with a cucumber - if you want to make any animal mean dogs, cats or human beat it enough and you probably will. Beating a dog teaches it violence.

I have three basset hounds (from shelters so 2 are probably mixed) which are a pretty mild breed but the alfa female will go bersrk on either of the two bigger males when enforcing her alphaness - it sounds and looks bad but they never draw blood. She's just being a dog. BUt, I never hit my dogs either.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[onerifle]

Pitbulls were bred for dogfighting for at least a century and a half.

Pitbulls that were pit dogs were bred for gameness, as Ellie said. They therefore tend to be animal aggressive. Different dogs exhibit different levels of animal aggressiveness, from going ballistic when it sees anything else on four legs, down to playing with other dogs, puppies and kittens without showing any aggression.

Pitbulls that were pit dogs were never bred for people aggressiveness. It is a recent trait that was bred into some dogs in the late '70's/early '80's, by those that were looking for a "status symbol". People aggressive pitbulls are not a true representative of the breed as it was originally bred.

Animal aggressiveness and people aggressiveness in canines are two completely different and unrelated traits.

As to the original thread- it seems as if silverlance acquitted himself nicely. It also seems as if the rottie's owner needs to be checked for a few loose screws...

 

[Cosmoline]

Here is the fact: All big dogs are dangerous. All big dogs could kill an unarmed human.

Yup. And ALL DOGS BITE. A few generations ago everyone knew these things, but somewhere along the line we decided our dogs were like our children. We don't think they should fight or bite or be dangerous at all--but they do and they are. The key is to control these instincts and use them to our advantage. But to demand that no dogs bite or act aggressively is to demand that we kill the very things about dogs that have made them useful companions for tens of thousands of years.

 

[Cosmoline]

I think an important point here is that the Rot's owner BEATS him with a cucumber - if you want to make any animal mean dogs, cats or human beat it enough and you probably will. Beating a dog teaches it violence.

I've smacked the GSD's I've helped train around with leather training rods many times and they LOVE it. It means the get to bite me on the arm. Deep down, all dogs want to taste manflesh. And they love a good fight. They are after all 99.9% wolf.

 

[dwestfall]

Why do you think it is that a very large number of "war story" threads in Strategies and Tactics start off with "I was out with my dog when another dog visciously attacked us without provocation..."

I wouldn't be surprised to see another thread here that started with "I was minding my own business at my house when my very protective dog alerted to someone loitering at my front gate. I have a history with this person -- he constantly baits my dog and I think he's stalking me... I gave my dog a cucumber treat for alerting me..."

It's the other dog and the other owner that's the problem.

There are a huge number of people around here with dogs, and I always laugh when EVERY DAY they go out walking them and EVERY DAY they get all surprised and shocked when they meet another dogwalker and the dogs go berzerk trying to get at the other dog. Hello, remember yesterday??

At any rate, since I can't visually tell the difference between a pitt bull or Rottweiler that was bred for human aggressiveness from one who only inherited animal aggressiveness, forgive me if I guard my kids and go Condition Orange when you are walking "Angel" off leash because he's so well-mannered and kid-friendly... But maybe that's the effect you wanted when you bought a big mean-looking dog.

 

[Byron Quick]

I bred Rottweilers and Doberman for about 15 years. I was never attacked by a Rottweiler or a Doberman of mine. I've been in the middle of dogs fighting to break them up and not been bitten by either of my dogs. Oddly enough, they were females. Fighting to see who the alpha female was. One had lost the spot and simply wouldn't accept it. Kept jumping on the new alpha female.

I've also broke up fights between Rotts and Dobies. Not only was never bitten. They never tried to bite me. I must have had poor specimens of these violent breeds.

I had often heard that Dobermans would "turn on their masters." So, when I first got into owning Dobermans, I began to ask other Doberman owners about this. Over thirty years with hundreds of Dobie owners, I have never met the Dobie owner who has been attacked by their Doberman. They have also never met the owner who was attacked. My experience and their experience, added together, encompasses thousands of Dobie owners.

You saw a Rottie jump out of a windown and attack its owner? Wow, new one on me. I've never heard of a Rottweiler attacking its owner. But, if so, given my personal experience with the breed, I would be curious as to if the dog had been mistreated by its owner.

I have no problems with Pits. Some of the very friendliest animal I have ever seen. But there is no way that I'd train one to be aggressive toward humans. When it comes to being aggressive, they have only one speed.

You seem to have an inflated opinion of Dobermans. I've raised many a Doberman pup. Roughousing with them all the way to adulthood. I can go one on one with a Doberman and beat it emptyhanded. I know their moves. It's not so much being faster. It's being able to predict. I wouldn't try that with a Rottweiler. They are not as patterned in their movements as Dobermans. And they are much stronger. I wouldn't say they are more aggressive than Dobermans rather they are more determined and more protective.

I wouldn't have any dog around children unless it had been raised around those children. Just wait until you see the collie nip Johnnie in the face. However, once a Doberman or Rottweiler is raised around some children then you've got to kill the dog to hurt the children.

Oh, the genetics thing. I've had Dobermans point quail and trail deer with no training of any kind. Look at one that doesn't have cropped ears and tail sometimes...it's a hound dog.

I once owned a male Doberman that had been raised around a quadriplegic. You couldn't shut Lance in a room at night. He'd go nuts on you. You couldn't shut off a bedroom with people in it. All night Lance would check the front door and then each window in the house. He'd go into each bedroom to check on each sleeping human. Coming close enough to check their breathing. Then he'd check their bedroom windows. Continuously, from the time you went to bed to the time you got up. Put a strange baby on a blanket in the middle of his walkway. He'd walk up to the edge of the blanket,extend his nose, and then smell and look the baby over. Then he'd turn and walk around the edge of the blanket. He'd look at one of his feet, then he'd look at where he wanted to put it, and then he'd look at the baby. Then he'd move that foot. And repeat the procedure all the way around the blanket with each step. He did the same thing around puppies. He wasn't aggressive towards people. Out of apathy. He'd never seen anyone he considered a threat. He'd meet someone new, look at them, and snort. Dogs were another matter. As long as they made proper obeisance, everything was fine. If they didn't, well, it's a good thing I bought top quality leashes. I've seen him attack three German Shepherds. And win.

Basically, I don't think you know any of these breeds as well as you think you do. I've lived, hunted, worked, and played for years with two of the breeds. I've watched generations of the two breeds born, grow to adulthood, breed, grow old, and die. I've know several dozen Pits who were friends' and relatives' pets. In the country, where people usually have been around enough to know they are definitely not a guard breed, I've never seen one so much as growl at a human being. That's over a forty-six year period.

 

[crimsonghost]

should have used the butt of the flashlight, I've seen cops beat on locks with a mag lite, them things can take a beating. And even though not advertised, they are completely waterproof. I've taken mine diving a couple times, never deeper than 30 meters though.

 

[silverlance]

whoa

stinky wasn't off-leash. stinky is NEVER off-leash outside. as a matter of fact, for the first two months after i rescued him (found him lying next to my car in a downtown LA parking lot weighing abut 20lbs - now he's 80).

i don't have ccw and i live in california, so the 951 was about the best thing I could have been carrying. pepper spray is no good for breaking dog fights (unless you want to take your dog to the hospital too), stun guns require you to get much too close (and are usually useless as melee weapons), and i'm no good with a knife. sides, i'm pretty sure that a good hunk of heavy aluminum upside anyone's head will go a lot towards ruining their day...

ps: i've also started wondering just how intent on malice the rott was. there are no scratches on anybody, and it's worth noting that not once did the rott try to charge ME, although it was kind of hard to see that being on the business end of a charge. who knows, maybe if stinky hadn't jumped in the rott would've gone for me. i dont know.

but i don't regret whacking it on the noggin, if for nothing else than to teach it not to rush at me or mine. you can never tell a "posturing" rush from a "i'm going to kill you" rush...

 

[Jeff White]

I bet if you guys googled "dog" you could find a forum where you can argue about what is bred into different breeds of dog...it's off topic here.

Jeff