Scout rifle for our current times

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H&Hhunter said:
The Steyr Scout fits those requirements perfectly. Magazine fed, spare mag in the butt stock, multiple scope mounting positions, integral bipod, multiple sling mounting options. I use the heck out of my Steyr Scouts and they are extremely useable all purpose rifles.
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If only they weren't so heavy, I might find them more interesting.
 
H&Hhunter said:
Have you ever seen a shooter bust flying clays with a scout rifle? I have and I’ve done it too. They are plenty fast and accurate enough for general purpose hunting and rifle use. I can shoot MOA with a scout scope out to about 300 yards.
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I have done that with no scope or sights at all. I learned it in the Army. If you like the forward mount scope that is great. Snap shooting can be learned with any set-up. I prefer a red dot or conventional scope for that purpose but to each his own.
 
I looked at ammo yesterday. 308 was probably the most common and cheapest next to .223. I have been looking at a 6.5 Creedmoor but ammo is over $50 for 20 rounds.
 
H&Hhunter said:
Cooper did not claim to invent the Scout Rifle. He simply wanted improve upon it and produce a factory available option. I think I remember from my reading that he was improving upon the WWII German ZF-41 scout rifle. Without further research I can’t say if ZF-41 was the first forward mounted scope design or not. But it was an issued battle rifle in WWII.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF41
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Yea, I didn't mean to give that impression. I know he didn't "invent" it but so many people can't say "scout rifle" without mentioning his name, so it gives that impression.

It wouldn't surprise me if the folks at Redfield and Leupold took inspiration for the Win 94 scout mount from a WWII rifle. The timing would have been about right. Scopes were starting to take off. Especially low fixed power scopes, which were perfect for the ranges most M94's were being used at. Hunters were seeing the usefulness of scopes on hunting rifles and those who only owned a Win 94 were frustrated by the top eject challenge of scoping their guns. So voila'! Redfield and Leupold came up with a solution and Leupold created the 2x EER scope. Aside from the terribly narrow field of view, it really is a useful improvement over irons without changing the function of the gun.
 
Funny how polarizing the Scout idea is, even decades later.

I don't feel the particular need to defend the concept line-by-line (it's been done by better men than me, including Cooper himself) but I will say that a lot of negative commentary seems to stem either from folks who don't understand it, or folks who's specialized needs aren't fulfilled by it. No, it's not a good long range target rifle, or main battle rifle, or middle-of-the-night house clearing rifle. If that's what you're looking for, you should go get one, rather than bashing those things which aren't.

The Scout, as simply as possible, is meant as a light and handy rifle capable of taking animals up to 1000 pounds or so, out to 300 yards or so, using a widely available cartridge, while being easy and fast to manage. It still does that quite well.
 
I will make one point about the scope, though, as it seems widely misunderstood. yes, the increased eye relief does allow for stripper clips, but that was far from the main point. Cooper often complained about "the annoying habit of getting 'lost' in the scope". The Scout scope is meant to be quickly acquired, with both eyes open. If used properly, that is exactly what it does: throw the rifle to your shoulder and the reticle appears immediately, while your off eye remains open and "sees" everything around you, maintaining your situational awareness and obviating any complaints about field of view.

(And yes, red dots do the same thing, and Cooper mentioned them as a real possibility. His only complaint was that "batteries are usually dead when you need them". I suspect that had he lived long enough to see red dots that could be left on for years and taken all sorts of abuse without complaint, he would have endorsed them.)
 
.38 Special said:
I will make one point about the scope, though, as it seems widely misunderstood. yes, the increased eye relief does allow for stripper clips, but that was far from the main point. Cooper often complained about "the annoying habit of getting 'lost' in the scope". The Scout scope is meant to be quickly acquired, with both eyes open. If used properly, that is exactly what it does: throw the rifle to your shoulder and the reticle appears immediately, while your off eye remains open and "sees" everything around you, maintaining your situational awareness and obviating any complaints about field of view.

(And yes, red dots do the same thing, and Cooper mentioned them as a real possibility. His only complaint was that "batteries are usually dead when you need them". I suspect that had he lived long enough to see red dots that could be left on for years and taken all sorts of abuse without complaint, he would have endorsed them.)
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I'd take my 2x EER scope over a red dot most days. In low light or night hunting for pigs, they could come in handy though.

A scout mount like the one on my rifle shown above, with QR rings so you could swap a 2 or 2.75x scope with a red dot, depending on the need, could be quite handy alright.
 
H&Hhunter said:
Have you ever seen a shooter bust flying clays with a scout rifle? I have and I’ve done it too. They are plenty fast and accurate enough for general purpose hunting and rifle use. I can shoot MOA with a scout scope out to about 300 yards.
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If they were wonderful and better then other optics we would see them used in 3 Gun competition and other forms of rifle shooting on the clock.
 
Man, you guys and your scopes! The last thing I'd want on a rifle that I might really need is a tube with glass in it perched high above the bore line, no matter where on the barrel it's mounted. But that's just me. No offense, don't hate me. And you don't have to yell at me, if that makes the most sense to you, I don't think you are wrong. Again, just me.

But having said that, and making everyone mad, a scope in the pack, and a QD system on the rifle ain't a bad idea. !!!! I like the Scope system on the AKM.

I don't think that thinking in terms of current ammo prices or availability makes sense. If the time comes when you would really really need a scout rifle, or need to go scouting in a potential hostile environment, if you have not already stocked up, years ago, with your ammo of choice, there won't be any ammo to be had. So as far as ideal caliber, it's whatever you have. Same as what rifle you have. Got a Hungarian Styer in 8X56R? And a boat load of ammo you bought in the good old days? Then that is the perfect Scout Rifle.

Which brings me to the original question, about .22LR being the weapon of choice. !! A .22 is a useful weapon, in some instances, and any one certainly wants to have one. (hopefully already stocked up on ammo) But as a primary weapon, when working alone not so great. However, one should not work or scout alone, and if you have a .22LR, team up with someone with a more powerful weapon. And again, the time to stock ammo is past, unless you are Mr.Money Bags, but any ammo availability could disappear overnight, right now, money bags or not. And if the dollar crashes...
 
If I didn't think I was really going to run into anything, a .22 LR seems like a good choice. Pretty good utility for a variety of functions, but - it is what it is. I have a 10/22 with an old fixed 2.5x scope that works good to ring steel at 50 or 100 yards consistently. In this area with all the tree cover, even getting a shot out to 100 yards takes some work - so, most any shots would inside 100 yards. I could see it buying me time to get away, since - yea, I guess you're right in many ways that it is good for this, cause a scout isn't really supposed to be out getting into firefights anyways. The light weight is very appealing.
 
.38 Special said:
Funny how polarizing the Scout idea is, even decades later.

I don't feel the particular need to defend the concept line-by-line (it's been done by better men than me, including Cooper himself) but I will say that a lot of negative commentary seems to stem either from folks who don't understand it, or folks who's specialized needs aren't fulfilled by it. No, it's not a good long range target rifle, or main battle rifle, or middle-of-the-night house clearing rifle. If that's what you're looking for, you should go get one, rather than bashing those things which aren't.

The Scout, as simply as possible, is meant as a light and handy rifle capable of taking animals up to 1000 pounds or so, out to 300 yards or so, using a widely available cartridge, while being easy and fast to manage. It still does that quite well.
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To further your point:

I have a few rifles that excel at certain things. Plinking and small game hunting, big game hunting, dangerous game protection, urban conflict. Each one is better suited to do their specific job better than my GSR. But none will do all the other jobs as well as the GSR will.

As for the .22LR side of the OP:

On the one hand, you've got a rifle. The potential for precision is there. The ammo is cheap and light weight, so you can have and carry lots of it.

On the other hand, it's .22LR. So its effectiveness and application limited. As a "survival rifle"? Sure. It can get food. And maybe keep dangerous people from being a danger to you, if truly necessary. As a scout rifle? Not enough power.
 
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As I understand it, the original concept was supposed to be a rifle that would be effective for combat use for a lone operator of some type and as a hunting rifle for 1000 lb animals. I am not sure in what universe that is supposed to be a realistic scenario so its pretty much an imaginary construct of an application as far as I am concerned. I am still surprised that people spend as much time thinking about this as they do.
 
I liked the scout rifle concept from the moment I first read about it. I liked the versatility of the idea. I don't think it was ever intended to be a perfect weapon in the first place, but rather one that was a "jack of all trades" kinda deal you could scout around with, having the one rifle that could serve the most uses. The forward mounted scope really IS a good idea, and really DOES give you a good field of view advantage. The problem is that it's still a scope. I believe had the red dot been around back then, he would have embraced that option, in the same mounting location. I've set up 2 of my so called "scout rifles" in this way. Both my No4 Mk1, and my 1892 are now 16" barreled red dot equipped "scout rifles" of a sort. Both are very fast on target, and accurate enough for what they are intended to be used for. Neither are the prescribed .308Win, and the Lee Enfield doesn't make weight, despite being shortened, but both serve well in their intended role, and I wouldn't feel under gunned with either. The ability of the red dot to change it's intensity also makes it useful in different lighting, and during darker hrs. The speed of target acquisition of a red dot... is unmatched.

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someguy2800 said:
As I understand it, the original concept was supposed to be a rifle that would be effective for combat use for a lone operator of some type and as a hunting rifle for 1000 lb animals. I am not sure in what universe that is supposed to be a realistic scenario so its pretty much an imaginary construct of an application as far as I am concerned. I am still surprised that people spend as much time thinking about this as they do.
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Here let me take a break from scouting the enemy position and kill this 1,000lb elk to eat for supper. :confused:

I've always guessed he was referring to those who have one rifle for the needs of hunting that would be useful for scouting operations. Personally, I think his position would change in today's world of cheap, accurate hunting rifles and with new optical technology.
 
BreechFace said:
Here let me take a break from scouting the enemy position and kill this 1,000lb elk to eat for supper. :confused:

I've always guessed he was referring to those who have one rifle for the needs of hunting that would be useful for scouting operations. Personally, I think his position would change in today's world of cheap, accurate hunting rifles and with new optical technology.
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Well, yeah. A lot of rifles are sold for dreams rather than realities. I own a .416 Rigby...

Realistically, though, a Scout is a light, handy, practical rifle, even though it does look a little funny. The Scout name itself may have been a bit of a mistake, in that I think Cooper was envisioning a rifle which was meant to be handy for a man covering a lot of country, rather than a man actively engaged in warfare.
 
Ugly Sauce said:
Man, you guys and your scopes! The last thing I'd want on a rifle that I might really need is a tube with glass in it perched high above the bore line, no matter where on the barrel it's mounted. But that's just me.
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The scopes are hardly high mounted above the bore. I can co-witness the sights and the scope on the SBL and I can remove the scope if desired for the irons alone with QD Warne steel rings. Both rifles have scout and standard scopes on QD rings and both have irons that stay in place:

IMG-4157.jpg

3C
 
BreechFace said:
I always thought Cooper was ridiculous in his notion above as well. Here let me take a break from scouting the enemy position and kill this 1,000lb elk to eat for supper. :confused:
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You know those scenarios we don't discuss on THR, where society falls apart? That right there is the niche. A rifle that can take a man, a meal, or a monster out to 300 yards....if it becomes necessary. Whether that's the niche Cooper intended or not, it's where it fits best. Where the rifle is a tool of survival. Be that in a third world country, or a lawless version of a former first world nation.

The scout rifle will not be the first choice in a world where you can pick and choose from your rifle inventory for a task-specific firearm, before you head out for the day. Or where if something breaks you can bring it home to the work bench and order a replacement part or dig through your spares bin. That's not what it's about.
 
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WrongHanded said:
You know those scenarios we don't discuss on THR, where society falls apart? That right there is the niche. A rifle that can take a man, a meal, or a monster out to 300 yards....if it becomes necessary. Whether that's the niche Cooper intended or not, it's where it fits best. Where the rifle is a tool of survival. Be that in a third world country, or a lawless version of a former first world nation.

The scout rifle will not be the first choice in a world where you can pick and choose from your rifle inventory for a task-specific firearm, before you head out for the day. Or where if something breaks you can bring it home to the work bench and order a replacement part or dig through your spares bin. That's not what it's about.
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So if society falls apart the rifle your going to reach for is your bolt action scout rifle and a hand full of stripper clips? That’s the last thing I would grab. Maybe that made sense in 1960.
 
someguy2800 said:
So if society falls apart the rifle your going to reach for is your bolt action scout rifle and a hand full of stripper clips? That’s the last thing I would grab. Maybe that made sense in 1960.
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If I had to leave my house in the next 5 minutes because my neighborhood was going to be completely destroyed, and I could only take one rifle, it would be my GSR.

If society falls apart and I'm forced to do the same, I would take my GSR.

If I'm staying put at home, I'll have something else within arm's reach. But if I'm leaving with only what I can carry on my back, I see no better option. Others may feel differently, and that's their choice.
 
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