Self-control tested

[SSN Vet]

I honestly never thought I’d be submitting an “incident report” on this forum, but Saturday night, “never” happened to me.

Background…..
My wife and I took our three kids (ages 2-6) to the outdoor theatre at nearby public park in Portsmouth, NH to see the play. Show ends at 9:30 p.m. and we have a two block walk to the narrow side street where our Suburban is parked. I’m hauling a wagon containing three very sleepy kids with one hand and carrying a stack of lawn chairs in the other. My wife is towing a cooler and due to me having to stop to fuss with the kids, is about 200 ft. ahead of me. I'm 6ft ~210lbs. and though it's mostly flab today, I did train and compete in martial arts some 15 years ago. PT-111 is IWB with one in the pipe and manual safety on.

There are several bars on the main drag about a half a block up, but I have never thought of this as a “bad neighborhood”.

Incident….
As I get up to the car, there’s this guy (mid 40’s beach bum looking, maybe 5'10" and 190lbs.) just going off on my wife, making statements like “why can’t you park that boat in between the lines” … “there’s a reason they put those lines on the pavement you know” …. bla, bla, bla … the guy is about 6” from her faces and is ranting and raving.

Apparently the guy had just parallel parked his older looking mini-cooper in the spot ahead of us and had a hard time. My wife is starting to argue with him saying “hey, my wheels are within the white lines”….

I get up there and leave the wagon at the rear of the truck and walk up in between the guy and my wife and say in a firm voice “what’s the problem?” …. the guy continues to spout off and after a few seconds of this I tell him “HEY, THERE'S NO PROBLEM HERE, WE'RE LEAVING, GOODBYE”.

At this point Mr. Parking Lot Rage retreats a few steps.

I turn to where my wife is and tell her to get the two older kids into the car (one the curb side) and I pick up the two year old to put her in her car seat on the street side. But before we get far with this, Mr. Loud Mouth comes back to give us his little political diatribe.

This time he’s ranting about how “why do you have to drive a whale like that for anyway”….”it’s because of people like you that we’re fighting wars in the middle east”…bla, bla, bla.

I hand the two year old to my wife and step up to keep Mr. Brainwashed Liberal away from the family…this time I’m wondering just how far he want’s to push it. I’m confident he’s not going to “get the drop on me”, I know my concealed weapon is not exposed and that he’s oblivious to it, ccw aside, I’m not intimidated by the guy and am quite confident that I could pound his loud mouth shut, if it came right down to it.

But..two thoughts are screaming inside my head.
1. We’re safe ... I can stop him from hurting us if I need to.
& 2. I can’t let this escalate.

So I step towards him and tell him again….”HEY, LET IT GO”… “WE’RE LEAVING” … “GO HOME” (not a lot of thought behind these statements, they just came out).

Mr. Moron again backed up a step…so I turned to see what’s going on behind me. My wife has the kids in the car and is getting into the drivers seat. I’m ready to bug out when ….here he comes again to give us some more politics ”Oh, I see you’ve got Maine plates, that explains everything” …“If you didn’t propagate so much, you wouldn’t need such a big car” … “it’s people like you that are ruining this world”….”I’ve got your license plate number”…bla, bla, bla. Now he was really pissing me off. I stepped up to meet him again and said “go ahead and write it down, buddy” but again my mind is screaming the same two things as before… I think this time my fist must have been clenched, because he stopped in his tracks… so when I saw him back down again and heard my wife hit the power locks button, I turned and walked around the back of the car and got in the passenger side. As I got into the car I could see him walking off up the street ahead and hear more “bla, bla, bla”…

We started the car, I wrote down the Bozo’s license plate #, waited a minute and then got out to look at our car as my wife thought he may have keyed it…..no damage noticed, so we took off.

After we got home and got the kiddies in bed, I called the Portsmouth P.D. and insisted that the dispatcher put me through to an officer to file a complaint. The officer was sympathetic and took all the info., asking several questions. She said they would attempt to call Bozo up and tell him that it wasn’t a very good idea to accost people over the way they park. I made no mention of my ccw.

So there you have it….

Hind sight …..
1. Though I wasn’t at all intimidated by the guy, my concealed weapon in a high state of readiness gave me the confidence that we were all going to walk away from this o.k.
2. My impulse to bust up this guys face was restrained by the knowledge that I had control of the situation and had a responsibility to not let it escalate into a physical conflict of any kind.
3. Picking up my youngest child put me at a disadvantage. This was the only moment when I really wasn't "at the ready".
4. It sparked a good conversation with my stubborn Irish wife about whether it was a good idea to engage in an argument with a belligerent man. I told her instead of moving closer to him to point at the tires and the line, she should have walked backwards away from him with her left hand in the “stop” position and her right hand pulling the Fox Labs pepper spray I bought her out of her fanny pack. Oh you didn’t think to bring it with you!!! It wasn't untill this a.m. when she observed me donning my piece that she thought to ask me if I was carrying Saturday night. She had been oblivious to what was really going on.
5. Liberals are not really the kinder, gentler, benign social do-gooders that they think they are. They are not "liberal" minded at all, but are truely hostile to those who differ with their thinking and are not to be trusted!

I’m open to critique….I let this guy spin me up more than I should have, but did manage to keep myself under control.

Fire away. I’m willing to learn.

 

[shermacman]

OK. let me be the first to say what needs to be said:

You handled it perfectly.

You can't beat intelligence into idiots. There isn't enough ammo to shoot all those who need shooting. These things I know!

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

You did good…

The sad fact about society is fairly simple, the person you encountered is one of oh so many, too numerous to count. They lack basic intelligence and common sense as well as respect for others.

People will argue over the dumbest things and will start confrontations over likewise as stupid issues as well.

I really don’t know why folks engage in such behavior, probably had something to do with a totally unrelated situation and he felt compelled to take it out on you over a parking space.

Speaking as a cop I see calls for fights and public disturbances all the time and once we arrive and get a handle on the situation we find the root of the problem to be something completely off the wall like the guy who started the confrontation was upset over his milk shake from the diner and then lost it when mommy pulled in to the parking lot with 37 screaming kids in tow which rubbed him wrong.

People are stupid; common sense is in the minority these days.

What was it Ron White said? "You can't fix stupid"...

 

[springmom]

well done

Everybody walked away in one piece and lived to see the sunrise. Good job.

Springmom

 

[pax]

You did well to stay (mostly) calm & in control of yourself and the situation. And good for you to try to learn from it.

Learning points I'd take away from there?

1) Getting kids properly into car seats, nicely settled, and completely buckled is a really good habit. It's also a really good way to get dead, if it keeps you on the spot of a confrontation you could have driven away from. I wasn't there, don't know the best thing for you folks -- but the deal my husband and I worked out years ago was that if I said the code word and added, "We're leaving now," we were leaving now, as fast as everyone's bodies got into the car with the doors closed -- regardless of who had seat belts or even seats. Yep, there'll be bumps & bruises, and those sweetly-sleeping kids will wake up crying. But ... they will live to wake up.

2) It sounds like a slow-motion encounter, but you kept turning your back on the guy anyway. You & your wife should sit down, right now today, and talk over such encounters. Probably won't meet Mr. Liberal Jerk again, but Mr. GimmeAHandout and Ms. YouStoleMyBoyfriend and Mr. DrunkAndDisorderly are all still out there on the loose. Anyway, probably best thing would be to assign one person to deal with children & the other to deal with whatever the threat is. As soon as the children are out of harm's way, child-tender should call the cops.

Divy up the tasks in advance, work out some shorthand way to tell each other that's what you're doing now, without being too terribly clear to an outsider. Then you will want to practice from time to time to remind yourselves what the code words are and what they mean you each need to do.

This doesn't need to be uber-tactical, by the way. It's kind of useful to have some sort of a family code that means approximately, "It sounded like your firstborn child just did something terrible in the kids' room but I can't deal with it right now because I'm talking on the phone to my most important client so could you please go into the kids' room and check what the little darlings are up to."

3) Calling the cops. Good to have the priority of Survival First, Call Cops Second. However, in this case, visibly calling the cops may have helped your survival/defuse situation odds. Rather than arguing with the guy, you could whip out the cell phone and announce, "You're right. I'm calling the police right now to take care of this situation..." Obviously this is a case-by-case thing, not appropriate for all situations. But it may have worked in this one.

Along the same lines, you know how everyone says never to hang up on 911? And how stupid-bad it is to drop a cell phone because it'll break? If you do whip out your cell phone in such a situation, remember that there's no law that says you can't hurl the phone down (or at the assailant) if the situation goes south anyway. A broken or lost cell phone is nowhere near as hard to fix as an injured or dead loved one.

My free advice, worth every penny you paid for it.

pax

 

[griz]

You remembered that it's illegal to beat some sence in to him, that's the main thing. I would have done exactly the same things, including the talk about argueing with a belligerent idiot. (Something about wrestling with a pig in the mud comes to mind) It's possible that it would have been better to let the wife load the kids instead of helping, but I suspect the time trade off made it seem like the best bet so I'll still vote with the "ya done good" crowd.

 

[crofrog]

The only critique I saw when I was reading through it was.

How did you check your six. You have one known threat in front of you, and you could have multiple unknown threats behind you. However you don't want to take your eye's off the one known threat. The easiest way to accomplish this is to. Why continuing to look at the known threat side-step in circle around him to bring what was behind you into your peripheral vision

Other than that job well done. I'm still young and dumb I'm not sure if I would have had the same self restraint you showed, and not just maced the guy. Then beat him into a pulp if he continued running his mouth.

 

[Thefabulousfink]

The best response to aggressive/angry liberals is to play the "Hippy"

Step back, raise your hands, and say "Whoa, Man! Wheres all this hate comming from? We were just grooving in the park and you got to come down on us like THE MAN."

That should put them off guard and possibly difuse/confuse them enough to allow you to retreat. Also, having your hands up, palm out, at shoulder level looks innocent, but puts you in a good position to defend against an attack or to strike at the head/neck.

I think you did a very good job of protecting your family and standing down the confrontation.

It also sounded like he just wanted to yell at someone to make himself feel big.

 

[MD_Willington]

They are not "liberal" minded at all, but are truly hostile to those who differ with their thinking and are not to be trusted!

That's the honest to g-d truth... their way is the way, tow the party line or your in for a world of confrontation...

Most intolerant bunch of hypocrites I have ever met...


That aside, I think you did a better job than I would have...

 

[jeepmor]

Good response

When things like this happen to me, I realize, it actually has nothing to do with me at all and it's really some underlying psychological issue with the person cracking at the seams. I see in it some of my uber-liberal friends as an excuse to act immaturely, but they are careful of their audience, this guy was not. This guy was not a threat, never was a threat, but his ranting makes that very hard to discern. I live in Portland, OR where I see this type of stuff often. There is a sharp division between liberals and conservatives here, and with the conservatives in the White House and the liberals barely able to muster any real political clout in today's climate, this is how people respond.

The only thing I could say that I possibly would have done differently is to tell this whiner that "You are scaring my children, please calm down." We have our differences, fine, I'm leaving....etc. Many people snap out of it when they realize that it is causing fear in others, they then calm down, apologize, and politely disagree and leave.

jeepmor

 

[Mainsail]

I like how you handled it except for one point. When you saw him 6” from your wife’s face yelling, a call to 911 would certainly be appropriate. You’re paying taxes to put the cops on the street, call them. JMHO.

 

[Jim March]

First: ya done good. But you knew that .

Second, like others are saying, you need to take this incident, learn from it and plan out with your wife how this goes down next time.

I see two issues:

1) Either of you need to be able to "declare an emergency". Once either of you do, the other follows along even if they don't agree. There's just NO argument over it in the field.

2) Once that happens, primary mission is to disengage. To do that, she has to control the kids, wrangle 'em up and in the wheels, YOU have to cover her. It just has to be that way unless she gets into shooting and can outshoot you. Even then there are psychological reasons to have the guy be the point against the (potential or otherwise) assailant(s) because the bad guys are more likely to back down from a guy.

Whoever is "on point" against the threat cannot also wrangle young kids. It's not safe to attention-split to that degree.

------------

This raises a broader political issue. Right now no law that I'm aware of gives parents more leniency in self defense matters than they would otherwise have. The law damned well should! If an adult has kids around and they're attacked, they're going to be defending those kids too and that means they're going to feel pressed into deadly force sooner than they would otherwise be. Call it the "mama bear principle" law - every crook/assailant/hothead out there should know ahead of time that you don't push parents around, they're more likely to lash out and for damned good reason.

 

[HankB]

No need to argue with an unhinged, liberal idiot . . . you did good, and showed a LOT more self restraint than was actually reasonable if this combative idiot was 6" from your wife's face . . .

Remember the old adage - when you wrestle with a pig, all you get is dirty . . . and the pig, well, he likes it.

 

[NMGlocker]

6" from my wifes face in a hostile manner is hands on time for me, I don't think I'd have much trouble explaining myself to the responding LEO's as I'm comforting multiple children and wife while the lone deranged parking nazi goes on a tooth hunting mission.
But that's just me.

 

[SSN Vet]

thanks for the feedback....

after reading the responses and thinking through the events....I can see some definate learning points.

1. I need to be persistant in my efforts to get my wife "on board" wrt. personal defense (though not pushy-you just don't push stuborn Irish women).

2. I think Jeepmor is right...this guy really wasn't a threat. The real threat was me losing my self control.

3. As far as the 6" goes...that's how close my wife says he was...as soon as I got on the seen he backed up (which is about what I expect from someone with this political bent....big man when he's yelling at a girl).

4. Fab. Fink.....the chuckle is much appreciated and I bet that approach would have worked quite well.

5. Crofrog....you're spot on....this guy could have had 4 buddies just across the street....I was way to focussed on him and not the overall situation.

6. Pax/Jim...I agree 100% about "security protocalls". Unfortunately my relationship with my wife isn't all that it needs to be....she thinks I'm paranoid and smothering her because I worry about her walking accross the 99 parking lot by herself after closing the place down on her 'girlfriends night out'. She used to be extremely "security conscious" when she worked overseas, but has let down her gaurd since returning to small town USA.

7. I am mistaken to think that I really did have this guy "covered". I was not paying close enough attention to his hands. If he was armed, he could have easily beat me to the draw (though probably not the punch). Truth be told, my training is minimal and though I can group pretty well when slow firing from 20' at the range, that's not even close to reality.

I guess the biggest feedback is that I CAN control my responses...this was a very large concern of mine and I put off carrying conclealed for a long time, because I feared that I'd get baited into doing something I'd regret for a very long time.

I'm indebted to THR for sounding off a mature and responsible voice regarding the responsibilities associated with bearing arms in self defense. You've helped me get my head rightly "in the game".

 

[Woodsmoke]

I thought you handled it fairly well. The only thing I would have done differently is not call him buddy. That only served to escalate the situation.

“go ahead and write it down, buddy”

Honestly, the best advice I was ever given on how to deal with unhinged people was right here on The High Road. I was directed to this website: http://www.verbaljudo.com/
by one of the Moderators here. It has changed the way I approach dealing with people. Just so you know, most homicides are the result of an argument gone bad.

 

[strambo]

If he was armed, he could have easily beat me to the draw (though probably not the punch).

Exactly, at that range (right in your face) it would have been a HtoH fight irregardless of the gun in your waistband. Too long to draw. The CCW would come in handy after he attacks you and you handle him, then his buddies come running from across the street. Or, you thump him to the ground and as you are leaving he gets up with a knife, etc...then you'd probably have time to draw.

You did well...sounds like the last comment you made to him though was a waste of time and needlessly exposed you since everyone was already in the vehicle ready to go.

I stepped up to meet him again and said “go ahead and write it down, buddy”

Before that you were buying time. Once you can leave, you don't need to say another word to him. Actually, you could have never said anything to him at all, but that might have enraged him...people usually hate being totally ignored as if they don't exist.

 

[geekWithA.45]

As far as I can see, you did it mostly right.

+1 on not strapping the kids in...that can be sorted out a few blocks away.
+1 on splitting the workload: Someone's gotta wrangle the kids, someone else has to run interference so that can happen.


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Right now no law that I'm aware of gives parents more leniency in self defense matters than they would otherwise have.

Not entirely true.

(My kids are 4 & 5)

PA's "duty to retreat" law makes an exception for defending others, and also has a "complete safety" stipulation on the necessity of retreat. For all practical purposes, the presence of young kids is a double whammy (defending others, impossible to retreat in complete safety) that puts you into "stand your ground" mode.

--------------

Some on this thread have suggested that the guy was not a danger...that may have been correct.

Flipside, that's good 'ol 20/20 hindsight speaking. He was behaving in a beligerent, hostile manner. Had he gone away after the first "Go away", I'd be more inclined to believe that.

But...he opened about THREE SEPARATE ENCOUNTERS, punctuated by retreats at each display of strength.

It's entirely possible that a display of weakness might have inspired continuation or escalation on his part.

------------------------

 

[glummer]

Parking problem?

Just curious: was there any obvious reason why someone driving a Mini-Cooper, of all things, should have trouble parking it?
Even if you did have a Suburban, a Mini is a small, manuverable car. He should have been able to park it between a couple of Hummers, if need be. Was there something odd about the parking?

 

[Lonestar]

If you didn’t propagate so much, you wouldn’t need such a big car” …

Your a greater man than I, saying that line to my wife, in front of my kids, I would have been real tempted to give him a punch in the mouth. You did the right thing, not fighting with your family there, the guy was looking for a fight and could have been armed.

Figure it this way, he is driving a Mini Cooper, he paid over $25,000 for a tiny, impractical, death trap. He is an idiot

 

[El Tejon]

Don't wrestle with a pig--you both get dirty and the pig enjoys it.

 

[fish2xs]

I’m open to critique…

Critique??? You're a better man than I, Gunga-din.


I'd have a talk w/ my wife about getting seperated, but that's it.

 

[Rickstir]

I don't carry with a safety on, but I was wondering if you had a chance as you approached to click yours off without drawing?

 

[JesseJames]

You did VERY well.
You tried to be reasonable but HE KEPT COMING BACK. Sure sign of an unpredictable hothead. I think he mistook your being a gentleman for being a pushover. Some day I get a feeling he's going to get in way over his head with someone less tolerant. Oh well.
Situations like that that don't call for a firearm make me think about getting one of those extendable batons that cops use.
Then again, I do have one of those 6 D-cell Mag-lights in the car. Just for "emergencies".

YOU are the better man for controlling yourself.

 

[roo_ster]

This raises a broader political issue. Right now no law that I'm aware of gives parents more leniency in self defense matters than they would otherwise have. The law damned well should! If an adult has kids around and they're attacked, they're going to be defending those kids too and that means they're going to feel pressed into deadly force sooner than they would otherwise be. Call it the "mama bear principle" law - every crook/assailant/hothead out there should know ahead of time that you don't push parents around, they're more likely to lash out and for damned good reason.

As they say, "Having a baby changes everything."

I used to be content with a pocket pistol. Nowadays, if I am out with my family, it is 1911 IWB, spare mag offside, & snubbie in front pocket. I am confident I can hit COM with my snubby & various pocket pistols. I am much more confident, however, with my 1911 if I need to shoot someone who has my wife or kid in hand or have to handle multiple threats.

When things start to look ugly I have one priority: get the family to safety, ASAP!

If that requires I swallow my pride, I swallow it & fish it out of the toilet after I pass it later...IN SAFETY. If that requires me to draw down, I will draw down. Situations where I might have taken the risk and given the aggressor the benefit of the doubt or a break have disappreared. Nobody gets a break if my family is at risk.