Should you let an intruder escape?

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One thing that no one here is considering is your mental state at the time. I didn't play "what if" when writing the thread that initiated this, but I will do a bit now.

I was so keyed up that if the panty burglar had not instantly complied with my orders I would have shot him. Not out of malice or an itchy trigger finger, but of adrenaline. Would it be a good shoot? In Texas yes; but what about other states?

I suspect that I would articulate my action as based on fear for my life. I was truly scared, and really keyed up. His turning motion may resemble telegraphing a punch aimed at me. Or, after he is on the floor, any motion to get up could be the first step of an attack.

Is it logical that I would fear a guy armed with a pair of fingernail clippers (which he put in his pocket before climbing through the window) and who looked like Pee Wee Herman? No it is not. But in the heat of the moment, I would probably have shot him.

I think the only way he could have left and avoided being shot would be if he froze, and then very... slowly... crept... backwards... towards... the... window... Even then, I was so keyed up; I probably would have hit him with something. When the "fight or flight" chemicals are flooding your body and you aren't flying the urge to fight is almost irresistible.

I would like to say that I would have let him turn away, hop through the window and leave. Should I ever be in the position, I pray that I would have the discipline to let him do so. But I fear that in reality, unless he was very lucky, he would be shot.
 
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That said, if I catch one in my home, I'm locking the door and the only choice he gets is if he leaves in handcuffs or on a stretcher.
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+1

If I see a gun - he's dead
If I see a knife, and he's far enough away that I have time to react, I give him the choice to get down or get shot. If he runs, fine. If he runs towards me, I'm taking measures to stop the threat.
 
Honestly, if you came face to face with someone in your house at 3am who wasn't supposed to be there, who wouldn't be afraid?
I know I would.
 
a very great thread with lotsa good ideas and points here...

The post about the perp "walking away" and turning and shooting the home owner was an eye opener for me.

brings up something to consider:

OP mentions intruder trying to "escape"... i think it's important to keep in mind that just b/c he's walking away doesn't mean he's escaping. If he's truly "escaping"- running, out of control +/- soiled shorts, let him go. But backing down could just mean tactical retreat to regroup and go at you again. Probably old news to some but something else for me to keep in mind that i hadn't considered before.
 
"Corner a man, and he'll put up a fight, however cowardly his nature may (or may not) be. Never corner a man, unless you want to kill him, because like as not that's what you'll have to do."

FourNineFoxtrot

I was reading your post #9 again (excerpt quoted above). It is excellent advice. Today it occurs to me that it works both ways. In my own house with my family to protect, I am the one cornered.

I hope you feel better today, and I appreciate your thoughts.
 
Thanks, Travlin. I'm a bit hungover, and old John Barleycorn may have tried to involve me in a shenanigan or two, but overall it was pretty cathartic. Literally, in the sense that I had to worship the porcelain god once or twice... commune with the commode, so to speak.


Your point's well taken, though. It definitely depends on the circumstances. There are times when you're the one cornered, and that saying does run both ways... if you're cornered, then fight like it. Desperation can make a man very dangerous. For instance, if a home invader gets the drop on me, wakes me up from a sound sleep to be looking at the business end of his gun, then you could say I'm fairly cornered, and fairly desperate. And I'd be likely to do something desperate, too, and maybe get myself killed in the bargain. Well, so be it. I'd figure he was probably gonna kill me anyway, and I'd rather die stupid and brave than cowering and compliant.

The difference between, "He's got me cornered", and "I've got him cornered", isn't all that great... my apartment has a lot of corners, and these things happen fast. Morally, though, I think the difference is near total. My right to react violently and without qualm ends when I'm out of the corner. Let's say, just hypothetically, that I start the encounter in the worst possible position: Surprised, cornered, and very desperate. At this point, I can (morally, in my opinion) do whatever needs doing to stay alive, even to the point of killing him. But let's say that there's a scuffle, and I somehow escape being perforated, and maybe we end up trading punches or bullets. And let's say that at the far end of the scuffle, he's the one looking at the man with the gun, growing very desperate.

I still don't want to kill him. And I don't want to give him the chance to try to kill me again. So if he's willing to throw down his cards and make a break for it, the one place I don't want to be is between a desperate man and his escape route. I'm not about to bid a polite farewell, but I'm not about to shoot him running away from me, either. And I [am sure] not going to try and "detain" him. I'm busy just staying alive over here. "Justice" can wait till tomorrow.

As for those who say, "But what if he comes back?": I would reply that only a fool would come back to the same house he just tried to rob, knowing there to be an armed, angry, and alert man there. And if he comes back another day, or brings friends... well, honestly, you could face the same problem if you'd just shot him and his friends came after you. This way, at least, you know who to look for. And every day he waits before coming back is a day you can spend preparing. Besides, revenge isn't good business, and most criminals know this. The ones that don't are rare. Dangerous, but rare.
 
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"Should you let an intruder escape?"

Like in a shoot/no-shoot: it depends upon the totality of the circumstances.

Getting a bit more specific, I think there are some general guidelines that may help. I would rate them in terms of RISK. As in, "How risky is it to do X or Y?"


[Assumptions: intruder has means to do harm and his intent was evil (not just a drunk getting the house number wrong). You are mindful of the Four Rules and can execute your course of action competently.]


What is the legal climate where you & the intruder are located?
I live in a more conservative part of the DFW, Texas, area. We haven't had a problem with district attorneys getting a chubby for self-defense cases. Matter of fact, our laws, case law, and most prosecutors are pretty open to the notion of self-defense. The risk quotient here is, "How much risk am I taking, legally, from this action?" The action being confronting an intruder, letting him go, or some such. Know your local laws and climate, IOW.


Would letting the intruder escape increase or decrease the risk to self & family?
If you have the drop on him, it may be least risky to either keep him in place under threat of death until the LEOs arrive. If you let him leave, you may allow him to get the drop on you somewhere in that process.

OTOH, say, you have the drop on the intruder, but your backstop is the drywall separating the living room from your child's bedroom. I am not going to knowingly send lead into my kids bedroom. In that case, letting the intruder move out is likely the best option.

Then, there are no-brainers. If the intruder is in the act of violence or preparing to act violently, "letting him escape" is not an option. You must stop the threat, NOW. The other side of the coin is the intruder who has his back to you, arms full with your VCR/DVD player, while in the process of walking out the door. There is almost zero risk letting the guy go.

Now, the above "risk to self/family calculus" is for the immediate situation. If, while contemplating letting intruder leave, he makes a threat, "I'll come back and cut the throats of your children," the risk of letting him go has just risen through the roof. At that point, the choice is not between letting him go and holding him, but holding him and something more vigorous to stop the promised threat.


Can You Afford an Optional "Shoot" Incident?
Affordability/money is not a consideration if your survival depends on putting down your attacker RIGHT NOW. Do what you have to and be thankful you will live to pay a lawyer a lot of money. In Texas, every homicide (no matter how righteous) goes to the Grand Jury. You are going to pay big bucks and big time even if not indicted.

Why do I bring this up in the case of letting an intruder leave? Well, how would one keep an intruder from leaving? The threat or application of deadly force. Letting him go will certainly cost the time of a police report and fiing what he broke. Shooting him will include that plus (at minimum) a trip in front of the grand jury. In dollars, that will be several thousands of dollars.

If the intruder is of minimal immediate and long term threat, the wise course of action might be to let him go.

---------

HTH.
 
On the advice of Mr. Ayoob in his book The Truth About Self Protection, we have an onion-skin defense at our home which effectively screens out innocent mistakes by uninvited "guests". Anyone who gets through all of the layers (mostly passive but formidable) to gain entry would clearly mean to do harm to us. This would be clear to a reasonable juror or first responder, as well.

Short answer for my situation: No. Detain for Police if possible, though.
 
Last two intruders that attempted to enter my dwelling encountered a protective dog and never came back.
 
Griff, not wanting to hijack the thread, but could you describe a few of your layers of defense (perhaps in a different thread if appropriate)? I would be very interested to learn.

If an intruder was escaping, I would not shoot him in the back. However, if someone broke into my house, I would identify where he is from cover, then turn the SureFire on him and yell "Freeze!!!" If the person did anything BUT freeze, I would shoot, even if he didn't appear to have a weapon. You never know - his not freezing might be going for his CCW.

~Dale
 
My life is full of cliches, so I will continue the traditions. My old pappy always said:

"Any stranger found here after midnight, will be found here in the morning..."

"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6..."

"Ya gotta have breath to explain..."

"Never apologize, mister, it's a sign of weakness..."

Now, with that out of the way, let me say that our family's plan is to retreat to strong points with both cell phone and weapon. Call 911 and keep them on the line. Fire on any unauthorized entry into that strong point. It's just me and mama, no children to corral.

We have a dog. We have a monitored alarm system with both land line and cell backup. With panic buttons. Our front door is massive with the little door that opens with a decorative grate. We have "contingencies" with our immediate neighbors.

We are at the furthest point from law enforcement. No city patrol. No sheriff's depot. We are dependent on the state police. Trauma center is 30 miles away.

I have stopped using the 1911. The issue is the light trigger and an adrenaline dump. Under stress, my finger goes on the trigger (I practice the finger along the frame, but I am not trusting it) and I do not want an AD/ND to influence the dynamics. And, yes, if someone were in the house the safety would be off.

I have already chosen to allow an intruder to escape by retreating as far as possible. He can leave with whatever he can carry. He can make repeated trips. He may be apprehended by the police when they intervene. Whatever. He nor I will be in any danger unless he enters the space previously defined as a sanctuary where defensive force is (by prior thoughtful choice) going to be applied to end an obvious assault.

Those are the "best laid plans" and will be good for about 2 seconds if the flag ever goes up.
 
I think your concerns about retaliation fail to take into account that criminals by definition are lazy, and cowardly. Their whole life philosophy is defined by those two things they will always take the easy way, the way that requires the least amount of effort possible, with the least amount of risk to themselves. If anything once confronted the word goes out that your home is not one to be trifled with.
An example is a stop and robs. As we know 7/11 corp policy is cooperate with robbers give them what they want. Employes are allowed to have gun. Which is why they get robbed. There is one in Lakewood Washington that is privately owned (franchise) located on Ponders Corner a haven for whores and dope fiends. Decades ago it was robbed twice each time the robber got shot once on the way out the door. Result is that place has not been robbed since the sixties.
Same with your home. Granted there is no thug newspaper that says do not rob so & so but the word gets out at least to that intruders associates. Not to retaliate but as a place to avoid. As far as the law in Washington state

Use of force — When lawful.

The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

(1) Whenever necessarily used by a public officer in the performance of a legal duty, or a person assisting the officer and acting under the officer's direction;

(2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;
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Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.
Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.
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So under the law anyone illegally in your home has forfeited the right to suck air. If you opt to let them live and they try to escape before you can turn them over to the police you may use whatever force needed including deadly force to stop them. They do not need to be a threat to your well being in order to legally shoot them if they are fleeing from trying to rob you. They in effect become a free fire target the moment they break in until the moment the police or meat wagon arrive. That is the law.

There remains the moral issue:
Is it just to shoot someone for violating the sanctity of your home and endangering the well being of your loved ones?
Is it just to shoot someone to prevent them escaping to prey upon others and do harm to woman and children in their homes?
Only you can answer that question for you.

Me I probably will not shoot an intruder. I will allow my three 130lb to 90lb dogs to detain them until the police arrive. Now if the intruder tries to injure one of my dogs who are members of my family I will stop the threat to my dogs.
If my dogs are not around for some reason I will do everything I need to do to assure that:
A) The intruder does no harm to my family or property
B) To assure the intruder does not escape to harm your wife or children.
C) That when the police arrive they will have a new found appreciation respect and gratitude for our men & woman in blue and be more than happy to comply with any order that expedites their leaving my presence

My plan is that when it is all said and done anyone who enters my home to do my family harm will regret it for the rest of their lives no matter how long or short that life is. They will experience pain and horror that until that day they could not even imagine. The horror will be so deeply ingrained into them that the thought of returning for any reason will cause them to soil their pant
 
Please learn the applicable laws on self defense and justifiable use of lethal force in your state of residence or any state where you spend any time.

Give you an example:
Georgia's law on home invasion has three criteria: 1) The invader must not be a resident of that dwelling(No, Martha, you can't lock your husband out and shoot him if he breaks in), 2) there must be a forcible entry(No, you can't leave the doors open and shoot anyone who walks in), and 3) you must believe that lethal force is necessary to prevent the commission of a felony. Note that I have not mentioned being in fear of life or of grave bodily injury nor I have mentioned the intruder being armed for the statute requires neither condition. As an aside, by statute, your vehicle is considered to be part of your residence in Georgia. A DA in Columbus, Georgia refused to present a homicide to the grand jury under these statutes. Caveats, this is fairly new law lacking much case law and the shooter in question was an off duty police officer but the fact was he shot and killed an unarmed man breaking into his car and was not arrested, indicted, or tried.

Check the law in your state, please!

Also in Georgia, it is legal to use lethal force to halt a forcible felony. By statute, a forcible felony, in Georgia, is defined as any felony in which force or the threat of force. is used.

Now, IANAL, these examples are posted for one reason: to let you know just how much things change from state to state. What you might think is universal...isn't. In Georgia, there are situations where lethal force is justifiable where you do not feel in fear of life or grave bodily injury or even where the person shot is not even armed.

It might be in your best interests to find out what the law is in your state and any state you visit. I can't emphasize this enough.
 
Mr. D, any and all, if I may -

at the risk of sounding preachy or like a badly written Burn Notice script, I'd like to tell you a little bit about the Onion-skin concept as it applies to my situation. Hope you can find something useful here, and please excuse the scattered format.

First layer: urban setting. My house is at the end of a mile long private (unpaved) road which we share with about a half dozen other families. (community watch) This road doglegs at a choke point with occasional deep washouts on either side.

Second layer: Our place is on top of a hill in a large open field which we split with another family (good neighbors watch out for each other), surrounded with a sturdy fence (poles as range markers, anyone?) which has been electrified to keep our critters in and theirs out. Signs, warnings, etc. We also had the power company install a "night light" on their transformer pole.

Third layer: above mentioned niiiiice doggies, big teeth, keen ears and noses, family protection oriented; robust, full-bodied bark. Early warning and elimination of small to medium sized predators, night watch, salesman deterrence, etc.

Fourth layer: flood lights which can be motion-activated or switched, game cameras. Locked doors and windows, drapes and blinds.

Fifth layer: Backup food, water, commo, documents, power, fire extinguishers, etc. Active local community first-responder support (EMS, Fire, Sherriff) No obvious signs of wealth beyond local standard are displayed. Defensive / decorative plants under windows (prickly - pretty, like wild roses)

Sixth layer: small safes in all frequently-inhabited rooms containing duplicate handguns, reloads, knife, pepper spray, high-intensity flashlight; other hidden in plain sight / secured defensive options. Wife and I both CCW, have military and civilian self-defense training, force-protection / antiterrorism professional credentials and occasional need-to-know, so are generally "in the loop" on several levels (street, official, etc). You may find a lot of the same info in your local papers' crime reports, BTW.

7th layer: OPSEC. Despite the details above, you still don't know where we live, our appearances, entertainment habits, what I've left out or added, size or configuration of our house, our work schedules or places of employment, vehicles, etc. Our bills go to a PO box, and a clearly marked weatherpooof box for package deliveries is located outside of the fence. Is this the weekend that the neighbors come over to shoot .22s, or is it the next one? No mention of kids or adult relatives, frequent house guests, number or breed of dogs, location of their lodging, feeding habits, etc. I found out by experience (lots of overnight shifts in convenience stores and gas stations during school) that sneaky people generally hate surprises and witnesses.

On top of that, we've made sure that local contractors and their sub-contractors have been professionally screened, call ahead for appointments, are always treated more than fairly with dignity and respect, and have real interests in making sure that their buddies don't spoil their good thing if they should talk a little too much at the bar. By that, I mean that we all like to have a good place to work and a steady source of income, right? If Bad Bubba hits our place, then there's not gonna be any cash available for that week's work, or references from us to help them network, etc. Let them police their end of the deal.


Thanks for your indulgence and patience, and I hope that you'll do yourself a favor and talk with your local NRA and / or law enforcement to take advantage of any proactive crime prevention programs they may offer. The book I mentioned earlier (a little dated in places, but very good info overall IMO) can be found pretty quickly with an online search, and http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/ has some real good info, too.

Take care,

Griff
 
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Once I have determined it is a BG and not a family member(by way of a nice surefire or similar taclight) he has two options. Do EXACTLY as I say, being Lay down, keep your hands out to the side with your palms up, or die. If he is going to run, he's probably going to make a sudden move to do so. At which point, I shoot. Amped up situation, adrenaline, fear, all combined, make for a light trigger. And I don't know what that sudden move means. He COULD be turning to run out of my house, or going to grab a gun, or anything. I'm not willing to take that risk. If he does lay down and do what I tell him too, My wife is calling the police, and once she's done, she covers me while I put flexicuffs on him. You may mock me all you like for saying I'd cuff him, but I'd feel a damn site more comfortable doing it, and i have full confidence in my abilities to Cuff him, and to put myself far enough away from him in the event he tries something, that my wife(Who I also have full confidence in) can take the shot.

And also, +1 for Avery, and his Pappy "Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6"
 
I have a feeling that the vast majority of posters here don't seem to understand that people have an approximately 80% chance of surviving handgun wounds. Just simple statistics of USA handgun shoots, doesn't matter what caliber, what type of handgun.

So you shoot an intruder as he was trying to run away, now you've got a wounded intruder in your house, he's still thrashing around. You plan on executing him?
 
Clint Smith said that the purpose of a handgun was to fight your way to where you so foolishly left your rifle.

My rifle is beside my bed or beside me in the house at night. If the intrusion is at night, I'm going for the rifle. 20% chance of survival by the same statistics.

He's thrashing around on the floor? No, I'm not going to shoot him unless he's thrashing around with a weapon in hand or seems to be trying to flop within reach of one. In fact, if I believe it is safe to do so, I will render aid after dialing 911.
 
If a man or woman comes into my house with riff raff intent, I have a big gun awaiting for them. Once I see that there is no lethal threat, I will be more than happy to put down the gun and let them go (with the police, of course)...after I whip their ass a bit. I fought competition kick boxing and was ranked 17th at one time and though I am a bit older now, I can still put a man to sleep with little effort (Not bragging, just a fact). I still train (Going on 30 years) though I teach more now. To be honest, I would almost feel sorry for a burgler that would pick my house...

And I will strike down with great vengeance and furious anger... - Jules
 
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+1 for reading up on your state's laws, including case law. In Maryland, the state attorney general put together a guide for how he sees the law (can't find it, will edit if I do) and how he expects the prosecutors below him to enforce it.

For me: I'm only going to shoot to protect myself and my family. I'm afraid of anyone in my house I don't know. More specifically, I'm afraid for my life, and I'm afraid of serious bodily injury. I'm afraid they are armed, and have deadly intent. If they are clearly leaving, fine by me. If they aren't, they are an immediate deadly threat. I'm afaid that giving any type of warning, directives, or quarter might increase my risk of being overwhelmed and killed.

As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing about being shot 3 or 4 times with hollowpoint that prevents an intruder from immediately deciding to cease being a threat and immediately egressing.

Knowing in advance what the law requires, and how I understand the law, dictates how I'll respond to an intruder in my home.
 
if I catch one in my home, I'm locking the door
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That's messed up on so many levels. Are you going to lie to your lawyer about that, or are you even worried how it'll look to the jury that someone walked in your UNLOCKED door, then you locked it and shot them? Geebus Kripes.

Byron Smith wrote:
Clint Smith said that the purpose of a handgun was to fight your way to where you so foolishly left your rifle.
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I haven't ever understood this quote. Unless you're at Thunder Ranch with a rifle tucked in every hidey hole, or a real homebody, who honestly has a rifle to "fight toward?" I know it's meant to be a statement to expose the weaknesses of the handgun...but it just doesn't click with me.

Some people have jobs where they CCW and don't exactly have a hidden rifle. Is the subtext of the quote that they are st00pid, and shouldn't have taken a job where they can't stow a rifle?

I like every other statement I've heard him make, but that one just doesn't make much sense to me unless it was addressed directly to police or military personnel...
 
haven't ever understood this quote. Unless you're at Thunder Ranch with a rifle tucked in every hidey hole, or a real homebody, who honestly has a rifle to "fight toward?" I know it's meant to be a statement to expose the weaknesses of the handgun...but it just doesn't click with me.
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It clicks with me. Rifle here, rifle by bed. rifle in truck, many rifles in safe. Maybe you need some rifles.

It's my stock answer when someone who knows I carry asks if I do so because I'm expecting trouble,"No, I'd have a rifle if I was expecting trouble....and lots of friends with rifles."
 
OK, so much has been cussed and discussed, so I want to mention a couple of things that I did not see while reading through the posts.

First, how does Mr. Defender intend to detain Mr. Invader? Keep in mind that felons tutor each other in prison on how to overpower police at handcuffing/searching time. Police academies keep trying to develop techniques to counter what felons are doing to kill officers trying to handcuff/search them.

OK, so we don't want to approach Mr. Invader, and plan to hold him at gunpoint. This brings us to the second issue. Mr. Invader has not been handcuffed or searched, so Mr. Defender must keep a very close eye on him, to watch for threatening behaviour. Who is watching Mr. Defender's flanks and back?
 
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