Up until now I respected Ayoob.

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Originally posted by hso:
It's just the internet! The place where any pimple head who's whole life has been focused on beating Grand Theft Auto and surfing porn sites can pose as an expert in SWAT tactics and weapons.
And we wonder why someone might question it?

I have to agree with this and several of the other posts. There is SO much good information out there, but also even more false information out there. One has to be very careful on what is chosen to be used and what is chosen to be disregarded.
Also, people can get misquoted and stuff can get taken out of context far too easily.
 
Hey, thatGuy!

I'm not angry, just grumpy.

Seems like a reasonable and rational and honest reading of Ayoob's comment shows that he was denouncing ONLY the "net ninjas" who were spreading certain very specific false reports.

Us Net Ninjas who spread truth don't fall into his criticism. Certainly you're not one of "them", are you?:scrutiny: If not, then you are *not* among those who were justly criticized and who must bear their "insults" with dignity.

Ignore my simple question by blasting a personal attack at me instead of answering it, or put words in my mouth that I did not say or even imply, and yeah, I will get angry.

By "spreading certain very specific false reports", I do not mean the innocent error of fact. I've make 'em, and been honest enough to recognize them when called/corrected. Maybe you've been wrong, too. But it appears that your blanket "insulted" statement stretches Ayoob's criticisms beyond what he really said. If so, then you are just like the false report people, you were justly criticized, and you must bear your "insult" with dignity.

And by the way, one court incident with a good judge making the correct decisions does not determine the truth of how all other cases will play out. Your experience was real, all right, but I think the Bias case shows how reloads put into a gun intended for self-defense really DID cause trouble for the accused. Perhaps it would have played differently for me and my standardized defense loads (no mix of light, lighter and lightest, and decent records to establish those loads, etc.). Get yourself mixed up with a prosecutor who wants you in criminal court, and your "intent" and choice of ammo WILL be admissible. That's happened in a workplace shooting incident criminal prosecution with the FACTORY ammo found in the gun and the hollowpoint bullets found in victim's bodies: "The prosecution argues that the type of gun Uyesugi selected from his arsenal was relevant to demonstrate that Uyesugi could appreciate the wrongfulness of his conduct based upon the complex decision-making involved in choosing a gun that could be concealed, easily reloaded, was lightweight, and was loaded with bullets designed to cause severe destruction to the human body." Later, the court noted that evidence of the whole gun collection was relevant to: "whether and how Uyesugi chose the weapon he did was relevant to his state of mind, particularly in light of his defense of lack of penal responsibility." Hawai'i v. Uyesugi, 60 P.3d 843 100 Haw. 442 (HI 2002).

In that one, the wrongful shooter was rightfully denied any benefit from asserting an insanity defense. All it takes is for your prosecutor to claim you were intending to kill that troublesome acquaintance who is nutz and wanted revenge for you breaking up some drug deal you never even witnessed. There's less chance of your gun/ammo choice evidence getting admitted if you are asserting clean self-defense, but judges tend to favor admitting anything that is even remotely relevant. This would be especially so in a CIVIL case.
 
Well, who wouldn't want to get advice on the legal realities of self-defense from rock stars, engineers, computer consultants, and archaeologists here and in other Internet forums instead of from professionals like Massad Ayoob? Those professionals get paid for what they do so their advice is obviously tainted by greed. That's just good sense, on the Internet, where you'll often see such an explanation. Worst of all are the professionals who also write for what we familiarly call the "gun rags" because we're all so hip, sharp, and knowledgable and wouldn't think of working for money. Which of us wouldn't prefer to be operated upon for a serious injury by a musician who does a little surgery on the side instead of by a professional surgeon who gets paid for his work?

When you think about it, someone like Massad Ayoob has been a professional in every aspect of the subject he teaches and writes about for around thirty years, so not only does he support himself from his work (which means he gets paid for it) but he has been supporting himself that way for a long time. See how tainted someone like that must be? Now you take a good, solid engineer or computer consultant or achaeologist or a rockhound who supports himself by doing something else and what you have is a person who obviously knows and enjoys his side work more than a professional like Massad Ayoob or any of the others who put their lives, experience, and knowledge on the line year after year.

As for using your own handloads to defend yourself, all you have to do is tell the Court some plain truths of the kind you see here and elsewhere on the Internet. You tell the Court straight out that you make better ammunition in your basement than Winchester or any other manufacturer does in its factories: the Court needs to know how good you are, so explain it clearly and impress everyone. Be sure to tell the Court that you can make more anytime in as large a quantity as needed. Be sure to say "Your Honor, I manufacture the evidence myself" so the Court sees you being respectful as well as an expert amateur ammunition maker.

And if you've modified your gun to have a nice, light 1.5 lb trigger, all you do is explain patiently that "I shoot better that way, Your Honor." Don't forget to be respectful. That's important because if a prosecutor or the plaintiff's lawyer in the civil suit brought against you tells the jury that various police departments prohibit the use of handguns with such a light trigger or any self-modified gun, you'll want to be able to say "I'm better than any cop out there, Your Honor" and awe the onlookers.

Above all, keep in mind the wise advice you'll often get in Internet gun forums from the real self-defense experts--like the archaeologists, rock hounds, engineers, and the computer software engineers--which you should memorize: "If it's a good shoot you have nothing to worry about." When the first responding officer shows up, say "Hey Dude, it was a good shoot so I don't have anything to worry about." (If it's a female officer the proper form of address is either "Dudette" or "Dudesse," and if you want to adopt a more colloguial stance it's probably better to say "Hey Pig (or "Miss Piggy"), the guy needed shooting so I done did it and I ain't got nothing to worry about nohow.") Then stroll casually away, with your unused handloads (you can always make more if necessary) and your handgun with its hair trigger (I think that's what the prosecutor and the plaintiff's attorney might call it), cop a brewski or two, unlax, and get on your computer to share your wisdom.

When you're on your computer in a gun forum and are faced with something you don't know it's always good to say "Well, he (whoever the expert is) hasn't hand delivered to me a list of verifiable court cases or the other documentation I require for my deliberations." Say that even if he (whoever the expert is) has published the information or if its of a nature that makes your lofty demand peculiarly idiotic and especially arrogant. After all, you're important. And, after all, idiocy doesn't have much meaning on the Internet because not only is everyone entitled to an opinion but also everyone's opinion is equally good. Really.

The one exception is that your opinion is obviously better than anyone else's if you can make fun of someone's name ("Ayoob the Boob" is awe inspiring). Then your stature rises on the Internet. And the more of such wit that you can generate, the more people just as smart as you are will rush to your support, on the Internet just as in middle school. You're clever. You're sharp. You're no respecter of persons. You be an Internet worthy and you rise to the head of the class.

What's really best about Internet forums, though, is that everyone there at any moment can be an expert on everything. That's why it's such a good idea to get advice about medical matters, for example, by browsing through almost any Internet forum. There's a lot of equally good information about such things as how to do your taxes and how to deal with the I.R.S., about world politics, about legislative matters, laws, and all other aspects of life today. If you don't need advice, give it. Everybody is entitled to have an opinion about everything, all opinions are equally good, and your own experiences or thoughts can decide what everyone else should be doing anyway.

This is our Internet. We don't need no steenkin' experts. We are the experts!
 
"professionals like Massad Ayoob? "

Just out of curiosity, what's his credentials that makes him a "professional" as opposed to "the professionals who also write for what we familiarly call the "gun rags" because we're all so hip, sharp, and knowledgable and wouldn't think of working for money."?
I know his resume, but just curious what he's actually done, hands on, BTDT, to see first hand instead of gleaning material others have written?
 
I never have understood why Massad Ayoob is such a lightning rod. I've read him for years and I've never found that he holds himself out as having more expertise than he has. He talks about his sources, he writes well, and he writes interesting articles (that apparently get folks talking - never a bad thing, whether you agree with him 100% or not).

Anyway, I appreciate where thatguy was coming from with his original post, but I agree with Grumpy that Ayoob's latest column wasn't directed at everyone on the 'net, just at the folks who don't necessarily know what they're talking about.

And, on this (how-many-times-can-we-go-over-it?) subject of reloads-for-defense, I've certainly seen some posts by people who maybe didn't know as much about the law as they represented.

Anyway, I just feel bad for Ayoob sometimes. :)

cheers, erich (who sometimes uses his precision handloads for carry, but then I do know my way around a courtroom ;) )
 
I think the important thing to realize is if you do use handloads in a case, and the handloads add complexity which costs you the trial verdict, more money to pay for lawyers fees or defense witnesses to testify, or the civil case which could follow the criminal trial, then atleast you can't say, "I was never told handloads were a bad idea!"
 
"professionals like Massad Ayoob? "

Just out of curiosity, what's his credentials that makes him a "professional" as opposed to "the professionals who also write for what we familiarly call the "gun rags" because we're all so hip, sharp, and knowledgable and wouldn't think of working for money."?
I know his resume, but just curious what he's actually done, hands on, BTDT, to see first hand instead of gleaning material others have written?

Oh darn, isp250, you've found the one big flaw with the Internet. The person assigned to keep you informed just isn't doing his job. You need to speak sternly to him about how he's supposed to explain what the word "professional" means. Then tell him to take you through Massad Ayoob's resume carefully and explain what each of the accomplishments on that resume means in terms of the word. I wouldn't pull any punches with that irresponsible person. He's supposed to keep in close touch with you and be there whenever you need him. My personal Internet servant is pretty good about doing his job but I can't spare him at the moment to help you. If your personal Internet servant continues to goof off complain to your Internet Service Provider and ask for someone more competent at explaining things to your satisfaction. It's not just a good idea. It's your right.
 
Sorry, but RH still hasn't answered the question. Deflected the answer but didn't answer it. You made an assumption and put it out as fact but with no supporting documentation. That's all I asked for. I know it's hard to look critically at your heros but you really should. You might be surprised that there really is no Santa Claus, Batman, nor Spiderman. They're all made up heros.
 
Up until now I respected Ayoob

I have read this entire thread and some of the others that contain critizisms of Mas.

I can see no reason not to respect his opinions. He encourages and furthers the debate on self defense issues. He is an advocate for our cause and a pretty damn good one as far as I can tell.

The petty ankle biting that some members have stooped to is embarrassing.
 
Not ankle biting. Just want to see if people really know who he is or if his legend has grown to compete with Chuck Norris. I've heard people credit him with having been in numerous shoot outs, having been chief of police of some large east coast city, having been on contract doing secret work for some unnamed federal agency. You name it, somebody has claimed he's either done it, invented it, or is the only expert who has knowledge of it. Just want to make sure the legend doesn't overshadow who he really is.
 
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=1933532&postcount=19

Robert ~ very droll, and right on target.

pax

Nothing as mundane as mere evidence can be allowed to threaten a vision so deeply satisfying. -- Thomas Sowell

No one is quite as blind and deaf as a small child with a towel wrapped over his face and index fingers stuck in both ears, yelling, "TRAAA LAAAA LAAA! I can't hear you!" ... but some otherwise sensible adults come close. -- pax
 
ISP2605...

You just wrote:

Not ankle biting. Just want to see if people really know who he is or if his legend has grown to compete with Chuck Norris. I've heard people credit him with having been in numerous shoot outs, having been chief of police of some large east coast city, having been on contract doing secret work for some unnamed federal agency. You name it, somebody has claimed he's either done it, invented it, or is the only expert who has knowledge of it. Just want to make sure the legend doesn't overshadow who he really is.
__________________
183 FBINA


Wow! I had no idea I let such an exciting life.

Nope, never been a chief of police of any city of any size. Never been a "double naught spy." Never had to shoot anybody.

And never said I did any of that...

But, dude...being a trained investigator and FBINA grad and having my resume and all that, why do you need to ask...? :scrutiny:
 
Sorry, but RH still hasn't answered the question. Deflected the answer but didn't answer it. You made an assumption and put it out as fact but with no supporting documentation. That's all I asked for. I know it's hard to look critically at your heros but you really should. You might be surprised that there really is no Santa Claus, Batman, nor Spiderman. They're all made up heros.

Major, I gave you an appropriate response to your comment. Read it again or don't, as you please. This is not the parade grounds, you're no longer addressing subordinates, and your commands are best reserved for those who have some need to humor you.
 
Robert,

I've read many of Mr. Ayoob's articles over the years, and have agreed with his ideas more than not, but what exactly makes you say he puts his life on the line every year?

John
 
i am angri as hek

as one of the reely inteligunt net ninjaz on this sight i am compleetli insulttid by a guy lik massid ayob. who duz he iz? i think he ensult all peeple lik me. i tel yu i knaw all. he duzzint now nuthing. my wurds speek for theyselfs.


Don't giggle too hard. How many posts have you read recently which seem to be written by a Civil War soldier. (Not that there's anything wrong with them). Why do so many people automatically question anyone with experience in a particular field? I'm a mechanical engineer. I may (or maybe not) be able to design a fairly complicated piece of equipment. That doesn't make me a legal expert. It doesn't make me angry because someone else has knowledge which I don't have.
 
You Might Be a Net Ninja...IF...

Hey, gang, it's been an interesting thread so far.

I haven't jumped in until now because, frankly, most anything I would have said has already been said by someone else.

ThatGuy, I think a bunch of folks have made it clear that when I came up with the term "net ninja" last year, I wasn't talking about Internet gun forum posters in general, only one particular sub-species of troll.

As one of the posters was kind enough to note, I've said in print elsewhere that there's a lot of good info to be found on the net, so long as you know how to look for it and have a good BS filter. You have only to look on this forum, under the revolver section, when someone asks about a modern Colt double action revolver, and experts like dfariswheel and Grant Cunningham jump in. It's obvious that these guys have a masterful knowledge of their subject, a level of knowledge that would probably be hard to access at Colt's own headquarters today. They are priceless sources of good information.

The term "net ninja" refers, with my apologies, to the martial art of ninjitsu. While honor and courage are core tenets of responsibly taught ninjitsu, as in the Togakure-Ryu style championed in the US by Bob Bussey and others, the public sees it as an assassin's art. The signature feature of the ninja is his uniform, the black shinobi-shozuku replete with black face mask to hide his identity and permit him to work unseen in the darkness and the shadows. In the public image, the unidentifiable ninja sneaks up behind the target of his assassination attempt, stabs him in the back, and runs away, still unidentified.

What sort of internet forum behavior fits this profile? Well, as I see it -- and with apologies to Jeff Foxworthy...


You Might Be a Net Ninja, IF....

If you hide behind a mask of unidentifiability when you stab someone in the back, you MIGHT be a net ninja.

If you make personal attacks on people by name without even bothering to address the topic of the thread discussion, you MIGHT be a net ninja.

If you make such anonymous attacks on someone else by name, even when you actually agree with his position, you are DEFINITELY a net ninja.

If you get caught spreading lies and disinformation, and instead of owning up and apologizing, just sneak away and "disappear" from the thread, you MIGHT be a net ninja.

If you do that same thing, and then later show up elsewhere posting the same discredited information, you are DEFINITELY a net ninja.

Y'all get the drift. Posting under a net nickname is something I have no problem with, for the most part. It's analogous to the monickers cowboy action shooters use at Single Action Shooting Society matches. It's part of the game, and part of the fun. At a SASS match, I'll answer to "Camelback Kid" and address the guy I'm talking to as "Rusty Marlin" or whomever.

However, when you start attacking someone's character, by name, and stay hiding behind an anonymous mask, you've just become a writer of poison pen letters. Different deal. At that point the ninja mask turns from black to yellow, because only a coward bad-mouths someone by name without signing his own name to the complaint.

As I see it, black is the color of the honorable ninja in Togakure-Ryu or other styles, but yellow is the inescapable color of the "net ninja."

And, ThatGuy, I've never seen you do any of that stuff, so rest assured, I wasn't talking about you.
 
Robert,

I've read many of Mr. Ayoob's articles over the years, and have agreed with his ideas more than not, but what exactly makes you say he puts his life on the line every year?

John

That's a reasonable question, John. I said it for several reasons but perhaps two of them might carry some weight.

First, Massad Ayoob is and has been a police officer for many years. My understanding is that police officers do put their lives on the line during the ordinary course of their work.

Second, Massad Ayoob is one of the instructors who have had the guts needed to be in the vicinity of me while I shoot and has never flinched. Okay, maybe once or twice. so I suppose I should add that he not only has courage but also speed and remarkable agility. :) That man can move!
 
I just noticed that he is a member here....He's only made a handful of posts, and most of them are in the defense of either himself, the truth, or reality.

Ever stop and think that perhaps if people didn't start threads calling him out,
or mentioning his name while spouting questionable "info", that he might have
a different opinion of boards like these?
 
Heh. Robert, I thought the 2nd might indeed be what you were referencing. :D

As to the first, I am not calling Mr. Ayoob's credentials as an expert into question. He has demonstrated the ability to express himself well, to perform well with firearms, and to train others well. He has stood as, and been acknowledged as, an expert witness in court. Without a question.

I did think I understood Mr. Ayoob had been a reserve or part-time officer most of his LEO career. I'm certain that is worthy, and certainly may be potentially dangerous at times, but doesn't seem quite as danger-ridden as being a traffic cop in the middle of Times Square.

Regards,

John
 
I just noticed that he is a member here....He's only made a handful of posts, and most of them are in the defense of either himself, the truth, or reality.

Ever stop and think that perhaps if people didn't start threads calling him out,
or mentioning his name while spouting questionable "info", that he might have
a different opinion of boards like these?

I was about to log off, stayed for a moment so that my wife and I could read his replies, and saw your message Just_a_dude_with_a_gun. My temptation was to give a breezy response on the order of "I know I would," but I realized quickly that it would do Massad Ayoob and the rest of us an injustice.

Of course it must hurt him to be the butt of personal attacks and a springboard for fools and poseurs to leap into momentary prominence, but I think that there's much more at issue--in my mind and, I suspect, his and that of everyone else here who takes their time to challenge such people. In my case it's not because of any desire to gain fame and admiration on the Internet. I don't know how to say this diplomatically so I'll say it straight out and risk the kicks I'll probably get: I really don't care about such things or about what more than a few people in the world think about me. What I do care about (and always have) includes basic fair play, the exchange of good information and rational judgments, and the sense that I'm associating with more-or-less healthy adults.

I've been around the Internet longer than most people, and its predecessors too, and I hate to see it perverted into a platform for damaged people to play out twisted fantasies to the detriment of the medium and its users who are looking for something real. I don't like pornography either. Same reason.

I like Massad Ayoob, but that's not the point. I've learned from him too, but that's not the point either, even though I've received more from him and the staff of Lethal Force Institute than the value of the money I've paid as a student. The point is that he's real: not perfect, not a comic book hero (as someone here recently suggested), but someone who makes a difference in the world and stands unflinchingly comfortable in his own skin. It's troubling to see double-naught-spies and rockstars exercise their egos on such men and it's especially troubling when they seem to influence other people to the detriment of us all.

It's really a serious matter to keep and bear arms, and its infinitely serious to employ them, so it's nothing less than horrible to see people advised to act against their own interests and those of the rest of us. I'm not talking specifically about handloads, light trigger pulls, or any other details of such advice. I most definitely am talking about breezy but vitriolic statements that mislead people away from getting good advice. I've seen messages in which self-annointed Internet experts actually advise such craziness as throwing down someone else's spent cartridge cases and running away in the event of a self-defense shooting, or dragging the body of a dead villain into one's home so as to make a better case, and other lunacies too painful to contemplate.

It really wouldn't bother me at all to see Massad Ayoob confronted with superior information or superior arguments by people who have the goods and the decency to identify themselves. I can't speak for him but I suspect that he wouldn't mind it either, nor do I think other real people would be anything less than grateful to be shown they really are wrong about something important. It's how we learn, all of us. But many people, alas, seem to get their self-esteem by attacking truly accomplished men whose work is important to them and to the rest of us. I'd hoped that my reference and link to the Graham Greene story might be useful in suggesting the motives of those people, The Destructors.

So although I really do like and respect Massad Ayoob, he's not the only point. The point is a more general malaise and it hurts us all. Gresham's Law, about bad money driving good money out of circulation if both are given the same value, is applicable to more than only counterfeit money. Opinions, advice, attitudes, relationships, marriages, loyalties, friendships: the bad and the corrupt always have a corrosive influence. That's what I don't like.

Good night.
 
Heh. Robert, I thought the 2nd might indeed be what you were referencing.

As to the first, I am not calling Mr. Ayoob's credentials as an expert into question. He has demonstrated the ability to express himself well, to perform well with firearms, and to train others well. He has stood as, and been acknowledged as, an expert witness in court. Without a question.

I did think I understood Mr. Ayoob had been a reserve or part-time officer most of his LEO career. I'm certain that is worthy, and certainly may be potentially dangerous at times, but doesn't seem quite as danger-ridden as being a traffic cop in the middle of Times Square.

Regards,

John

I've never been a Times Square traffic cop, John, only an occasional driver there years ago. When a rabid taxi driver rearended the car I was driving once, it didn't occur to me to say "Hey, that's not fair because I only do this once in a while." :)

Perhaps I miss your point but it seems to me that a police officer risks his life whenever he goes on duty no matter how often that might be--a month or two each year, five days each week, or whenever. And I don't understand why it would matter to the officer if he were to be wounded or killed on one day or another. If a part-time or reserve officer is immune from danger while on duty but a full-time officer isn't, that seems grossly unfair to me and somebody should do something to correct that inequity.

Several of my friends are in law enforcement with various agencies, one a reserve officer for many years. I've observed them kid each other about who had the more dangerous job but I'd thought they were joking. Other friends were in the National Guard and Army Reserve but when they were called to active duty the enemy shot at them just as if they were "real" soldiers.

Maybe I just don't understand where the differences lie?
 
RH,

Good posts. All of them. I'm too lazy or too unsure that the audience is worth it to write the long replies that you do, but they are right on the money.

Good show.

520
 
I just figured out why his reputation is so great. He has demonstrated the ability in this thread and others to shrug off insults, critics, and what would be personal attacks if they were said about a less public figure. However he has obtained this amour like thick skin, it has made him bulletproof!!

If that wasn't clear, just pay attention. The man is here answering questions, his resume has already been posted, what more do you want? Agree, disagree, like him or not, but don't make insinuations out of thin air.
 
You have to learn to shrug off the personal attacks when you are a professional writer. It doesn't take long to see a pattern of a certain type of critic, one who issues caustic personal attacks that don't address your work itself, as a person with more than a little bitterness about their own lots in life. You seperate valid criticisms of your work from the vitriolic personal attacks, pay attention to and learn from the first, and ignore the latter.
 
Is it still OK for me to carry a Hi-Point with a laser as my primary carry gun?

One of the magazines gave it great reviews, plus a lot of movies use lasers!
 
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