Up until now I respected Ayoob.

[Hawk]

I hadn't jumped in before but didn't realize the thread would have this long a set of legs. Personally, I believe Mas has the bona fides to get my full attention and respect. Should I decide to pin the grip safety of my 1911, stuff it full of handloads and put "Punisher" logo grips on and come to grief, it's my decision. Can't see arguing the point.

But, this notion that he's done a fine job of insulting net ninjas?

This is a piece I stashed away on the Etronix:

A couple of years ago, curiosity got the better of me and I spent (read: wasted) an hour or two every day for a week scanning firearms chat rooms on the Internet. During that week I saw handloads recommended that would blow a cannon to smith-ereens, gunsmithing “tips” that would wreck an arsenal and assorted advice on firearms, scopes and ammunition that gave me the shivers.

All of this “advice” was contributed by self-styled experts cowering anonymously behind silly screen names; the anonymity, however, did nothing to conceal their ignorance. The one statement that stood above the rest for misguided stupidity was made by an individual who declared that he saw no reason to continue reading shooting magazines because he could learn all there was to know about guns and shooting right there in that chat room.

Had his face, rather than a phony screen name, been up there on my monitor, I might have tried to ram my fist through the glass and slap some sense into him, because that week, in the very chat room he was so highly praising, a remarkable new development in firearms design had just been thoroughly trashed.

The gun was Remington’s just announced Etronix rifle, and the dozens who condemned it had never shot one or seen one and hadn’t the vaguest notion of how one worked. Yet every criticism was applauded and cheered by onlookers in a mass pile-on, giving me a mental image of a cave full of primitive savages who have been shown a clock, with each trying to explain to the others what it is for and how it works and all of them finally beating it to death with their clubs. Only now the clubs were keyboards.

Sadly, I didn't keep the attribution (wasn't Mas). Neither is it my intention to drift the thread to electronic ignition. If one wants to be offended, I respectfully submit that Mas's comments were pretty gentle compared to what can be easily found.

Personally, I think his remarks were pretty accurate, too. Perhaps a little thicker skin might be in order?

 

[Tory]

FOUL!

"How many posts have you read recently which seem to be written by a Civil War soldier [?]. "

As one who has read a fair number of letters from CW soldiers, I object. Many of them are FAR more skilled and literate many of those now cluttering up the net with posts devoid of punctuation, capitalization, paragraphs or even a discernible point.

 

[isp2605]

Mas opined and inquired:
"ow! I had no idea I let such an exciting life."

Oh, the stories that have been attributed to you and your life! The feats you have accomplished. To get all them done you'd have to be 110 yrs old.
Did you know you were the COP in Boston? Neither did I. Might be a surprise to the COP in Boston too. Just heard that one 3 weeks ago by a gun shop commando. He wasn't sure it was Boston, but it was some big east coast city, he couldn't remember for sure. Could have been Baltimore.
Did you know that you've been in several dozen shootings, second only to Jim Crillo? Yup, armed robberies were so out of control in your city that you ran a stake out team, getting in shoot outs almost weekly. Excaped death many times by just fractions of an inch. That's why you've taken up the cause of defensive tactics. Heard that one a couple of years ago.
Did you know you've been shot several times and that you still have 1 bullet lodged next to your heart? Yup, too dangerous to remove it.
Did you know you won the Silver Star in VN? And you were nearly killed in a VC attack? Saved a bunch of GIs' lives that day.
About the only story I haven't heard was you recovering the Lindberg baby. But I'm sure that someone will take the liberty of adding that to your resume too.


"And never said I did any of that..."

Never said you did. But those are the kind of stories being told by the Kool-Aid drinkers. I realize you can't stop the fabrications and imaginations of the couch potato commando crowd. It doesn't help your legitimate resume by those kinds of stories floating around.
Those are the kinds of feats of danger attributed by those who don't know who you are, had heard the name, read your articles, and next thing someone adds a bit here, a bit more there, and before long, some of these people have elevated to where you might not walk on water but you won't get wet above the ankles. In all fairness tho, I haven't heard anyone claim to have seen you turn water into wine.


"But, dude...being a trained investigator and FBINA grad and having my resume and all that, why do you need to ask...? "

Oh, I'm not asking. Doesn't really matter to me. I've BTDT, had my butt on the line, and did my time in the trenches. It's just fun to see how many of these kinds of stories keep popping up by those trying to expound on your resume. They'll make vague references occasionally and sometimes someone will pop up with a new feat of heroism. Even old Hairless Bob makes vague references but he can't or won't put facts to his statements. Just blind, unsupported, wide-eyed hero worship. Nothing wrong with hero worship, just as long as they stick to the facts and not try to expand the facts to where they're unrecognizable. You have a legit resume so why do some think they have to embellish it.
This entire thread started because someone took exception to a statement attributed to you taking to task internet forums. There's so much misinformation perpetrated and perpetuated on the internet by those who have no experience in anything involving firearms, defensive tactics, or LE other than reading what some keyboard commando has written, and they take it as gospil because "it's on the internet." Then there are those who buy a gun, fire a couple of boxes of ammo, can keep 1/2 the rds on a full size silhouette at 7 rds, and suddenly they're firearms experts who know all there is to know about firearms, shootings, and defensive situations. These are potentially dangerous kinds of people because they spread BS and garbage about which they know absolutely nothing and those who are uninformed, wanting to learn but don't know any different take the commandos' statements as legit.
So my reason for asking the questions is to see just how many of these keyboard commandos surface. They do, and they have.

So how are the boys and girls in blue doing in Boston? Or is it Baltimore? Just how many VC did you kill in the attack? Do you still wear around your neck the bullet they were able to remove from that gas station shootout?

 

[massad ayoob]

I say again...WOW.

Thanks for clearing that up, ISP2605.

Never been a cop in either of those cities, let alone chief there, and the other stuff is BS, too. Exactly WHERE did you hear that? I would have thought that stuff would have got back to me if it was going around, but haven't heard it until now.

I have to back up Bob Hairless on one point: small town or big city, full time or part time, cops and firefighters and EMS put their lives on the line. I think John Farnam's best line came when he was teaching cops in a rural area, and one asked him, "Hey, how often do you think cops get killed around here, anyway?"

John's reply was classic. "Same as anywhere. Just once."

If you're still in Illinois, there will be several hundred of us in attendance at ILEETA, the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association conference in Greater Chicago late next month. Retired cops with the background you describe are always welcome there. If you're interested, PM me.

 

[isp2605]

"Never been a cop in either of those cities, let alone chief there, and the other stuff is BS, too."

But they make such good stories!


"Exactly WHERE did you hear that? I would have thought that stuff would have got back to me if it was going around, but haven't heard it until now."

I hit the gun show circuit pretty hard in this area. There is always someone who is up for a good story telling and knows all there is to know about all there is. Those kinds of guys are a real hoot. Just a little bit of coaxing and they're all set to tell some big yarn they expect everyone to believe. And I never pass up a gun shop in my travels. Meet some real 'interesting' characters in some. And never can tell when someone will have a really cheap price on something they don't know what they have. Haven't found it yet, but I'm still looking.


"I have to back up Bob Hairless on one point: small town or big city, full time or part time, cops and firefighters and EMS put their lives on the line. I think John Farnam's best line came when he was teaching cops in a rural area, and one asked him, "Hey, how often do you think cops get killed around here, anyway?""

I've worked with a lot of very small, very rural depts. They have no people to speak of, no back ups, out in the netherlands where sometimes even their radios don't work, and the bad guys know they are out there alone. Been there more than a few times. You know if it goes bad there won't be anyone coming for a long long time.
The county where I first lived as a LEO only had the sheriff and 2 deputies and they were the only full time local cops in the entire county. The towns only had part timers who worked whenever they felt the need so you never knew when they were on. Interesting time.
One of my best friends was killed, executed really, on 12/07/81. Old deputy from a small sheriff's office. I think they only had 7 full time deputies at the time. He was checking out a semi parked in a remote area of the county. Shot once above the belt buckle, in each side of the head, once in his star. Shooter appeared to be sending a message.
Neither the color of the uniform nor the patch on the shoulder has ever protected anyone from a bullet.


"If you're still in Illinois, there will be several hundred of us in attendance at ILEETA, the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association conference in Greater Chicago late next month. Retired cops with the background you describe are always welcome there. If you're interested, PM me."

Saw the brochure come across my desk before I retired and recognized a few of the names who will be there. Should be a good event. Never thought about attending. Had retirement plans to make. In a week or so heading out to warmer weather for a few weeks and not sure when we'll be back. Getting into this retirement mode. Chicago is about 250 miles from home and I avoid going there unless it's just absolutely necessary. I worked some cases up there in places I sure didn't want to be. Too many people, too much traffic, and PITA to get around. It's just not part of IL that I like.
Have a good conference. May catch you around somewhere. If nothing else, I'll be keeping up with all your exploits while I'm at the gun shows.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Net ninjas not only deserve bashing but should be tuff enuf to take it.

 

[Model520Fan]

Is it still OK for me to carry a Hi-Point with a laser as my primary carry gun?

Yes.

 

[Dragoon44]

I met Mas about twenty years ago when I attended a Police Auto pistol instructors course He taught. there were two things that impressed me. First,, the man truly has a gift for teaching, I had been to many Firearms instructors courses and I still rate Mas's course as the best I have ever been to. Secondly, was the total lack of EGO, Mas never once came across as, THE EXPERT, or that he thought he was superior to anyone. ( which is more than I can say about many of the N.R.A. and F.B.I. police firearms instructors I've met)

 

[Model520Fan]

isp2605,

Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like you're telling us that you listen to a lot of delusional people, and you're reporting it on a thread about Mas Ayoob. Why? If I heard voices telling me that the Second Coming was going to be in Cincinnati in April 2006, I wouldn't be calling up the mayor of Cincinnati to tell him about it.

I think that your experiences with listening to these folks are better discussed with your personal trainer.

520

 

[isp2605]

"Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like you're telling us that you listen to a lot of delusional people, and you're reporting it on a thread about Mas Ayoob. Why?"

Yup, you're missing something. Read the inital post. It's several pages back and probably got lost in all the other postings.
To refresh your memory here's a clip, the crux of it: "I think maybe these people want to be the sole source of info and don’t like competition. These forums are what they are- places where folks meet and talk. Sure, some people offer themselves as experts who shouldn’t, but for the most part it’s just shooters sharing info and offering commentary based on their own experiences. Readers should take it for what it’s worth. I don’t think it is right for Smith, Ayoob and others like them to warn readers to steer clear of these forums."

Does this help any put it together for you? It's about those 'experts' who have some BS story about which they know nothing about. It's about those posting on the internet who claim to know all there is to know about all there is, yet they have no credibility, no experience, and have done nothing but read the internet and listen to other people who haven't a clue. It's about a warning to pay attention and not take what's on the internet as gospil. I'm no defender of Mas. He's a big boy and is quite capable of defending himself. I've never met the man. Mas just happened to be the one mentioned by the originator. What I am going to defend tho is getting the right info out there. There are too many inexperienced people honestly trying to learn and do the right thing. But, being inexperienced, they don't know enough not to listen to the 'expert' who is nothing more than an internet commando sitting on his couch fondling a gun that he couldn't hit a bull in the butt with a 5 yds, and worse, know when to use it. These people often relate info that could be dangerous and misleading to the inexperienced trying to learn. These kinds are a pyorrhea that need to be exposed for the phonies that they are before they get an innocent person hurt or in more trouble than they can imagine. I spent my career trying to keep my people and honest citizens out of trouble.
That's the part you are "missing something" in the posts.

 

[Robert Hairless]

isp2605

Even old Hairless Bob makes vague references but he can't or won't put facts to his statements.

Good for you, Major! You've got the right moves: you've picked up on my statement that some people behave in Internet forums the way mean little kids behave in middle school. They make fun of other people's names.

But your execution of the technique needs some fine tuning. In this instance, you could have distorted my name "Robert Hairless" into more of an insult than "Hairless Bob." How about "Baldy Bob"? Or "Baldy Bobby"? Those would be even better thighslappers and perhaps be worth a few more yucks. I'm not good at that sort of thing so I can't give you more than those obvious possibilities for nastiness.

You do have the arrogance to insist that other people serve your demands and the malice to insult and demean them when they don't obey your commands. Work on the technique a little more and you can win the respect and admiration of others like you.

In this thread I've written about what concerns me--those who attack accomplished people as a way, probably, to cope with their own sense of inadequacy. I'm not interested in writing about what concerns you--whatever it is that's really bothering you. Massad Ayoob's published comments about that kind of Internet poster provoked someone to begin this thread by focusing on him. I'm one of many others here who are concerned about the more significant issues revolving about Internet forums, especially Internet gun forums, rather than Massad Ayoob himself.

Even the initial poster didn't focus on picking at him, but that has been your major concern, and I won't agree to your demands that I let you control me to make it my concern too.

What's especially bizarre is that you criticize Ayoob himself for claims you say other people make about him--not for anything he himself did or said. I notice, by the way, that you don't provide what you demand so persistently from me: facts, details, and documentation. That's strange procedure from a law enforcement officer, which leads me to a final comment that I offer in the best possible spirit.

Since you raised the subject of retirement, it's not inappropriate for me to endorse your interest in retiring. Retirement seems beneficial for a law enforcement officer who appears to be so focused on his own needs that he doesn't hear or pay attention to other people except as targets for his unhappiness. A change in life might help prevent you from taking that same approach in your job, where much more is at stake than demeaning people you don't like by juvenile mockery of their names.

 

[isp2605]

Thanks for your comments RH. And once again, still, you fail to provide any documentation or supporting facts for your statements as I had asked. Just more fluff and BS.
So I'm done with this thread. Mas understood where I was coming from. If you'll note (reading comprehension skills are difficult for you it appears) I didn't criticize him but used as an example the BS that the other RH-like folks out there spread. Unfortunately, it might have been a bit too deep thinking for many.

 

[ezypikns]

My apologies to Tory and my own Confederate veteran great great grandfathers

I just knew I'd touch a nerve somewhere when I compared Civil War soldiers to misspelling posters on this forum. Or should I have said: "War of Northern Agression" soldiers. Outrage is alive and well in this forum.

 

[Model520Fan]

isp,

You brought up all the fanciful stuff about Mas as a continuation of your question about his creds. You didn't discredit it, you just brought it up, after RH hinted or said outright that you might want to check Ayoob's resume.

If I misunderstood what you meant to say, that's your problem. I don't think I misunderstood you at all, and it appears that RH doesn't think so, either. I suppose if you are really concerned about whether you have problems communicating, you could take a poll and see who's screwed up here, me or you. Somehow, I don't think you care. I do, but the evidence so far seems to indicate that I understood not only what you said, but what you meant to say.

520

 

[Correia]

Mod hat on.

When posters start to question each other's intelligence, reasoning, or literacy, the thread is getting real close to getting locked, and the mods start to get the itch to ban people.

So gentlemen, please chill the hell out.

 

[flatdog]

Before the whip comes down...

on this thread.

Several years ago it all the rage to tell " I was there" stories. They were all about the run up to the fight and how the hero won through to it's conclusion. What was sorely lacking was what happened in the aftermath of that shooting.

All manner of advice was given on technique and equipment to survive the fight but, there was a dearth of information in the firearms press about what to do after you won. Very little on psychology or the legal system and how to deal with those considerations.

Perhaps it wasn't flashy enough and didn't move product off dealers shelves. But it needed to be addressed in order to gain insight and perspective into the responsibilities and consequences of using firearms in self defense.

Mr. Ayoob stepped in and spoke to that need and as a result many people were disabused of some very serious misconceptions regarding armed self defense.

This I think outweighs any slights real or imagined to internet ninjas past, present, or future.

 

[JohnKSa]

"I think maybe these people want to be the sole source of info and don’t like competition.

Perhaps some do. I think that many of "these people" have devoted years of their lives to helping and informing people.

They get understandably upset when they see:

1. Foolish and dangerous advice being given and taken.
2. Good sources of reliable and accurate information being denigrated.
3. Groundless personal attacks from anonymous sources being made against them and others they respect.

So far your criticism of Mr. Ayoob appears to be based primarily on two points:

1. What you THINK he wants. ("to be the sole source of info")
2. Things you've heard about him from others (not from him) that either can not be confirmed or are known to be false.

If that's the best you can come up with, I believe this thread has actually raised, not lowered, my opinion of Mr. Ayoob.

 

[isp2605]

Thank you John. At least I know 1 person understands.

 

[HankB]

I finally had a chance to read Ayoob's "American Handgunner" article about GSR & handloads in a prosecution. One thing stood out - the defendant had made a statement to police, and most of the DA's case revolved around the assertion that it couldn't have happened the way he said it did.

It looks as if making a statement came back to haunt the guy - IIRC, Ayoob wrote in one of his books (In The Gravest Extreme(?)) that one ought never make a statement to police beyond the absolute minimum, i.e., identify yourself and shut up. This sounds to me like good advice, and if it had been followed, the legal nightmare that followed may not have occured.

Moreover, in this case, the GSR evidence was lacking because of extremely light target loads with minimal powder charges. Who loads light target loads for defense?

 

[techmike]

If that's the best you can come up with, I believe this thread has actually raised, not lowered, my opinion of Mr. Ayoob.


+1 I'm glad Mr Ayoob chimed in here. As I have long suspected, he is a class act.

 

[Erich]

Getting off-topic, but . . .

Hank asked,

Who loads light target loads for defense?

I don't, but I understand the gun in question belonged to a lady. I certainly have known ladies who don't care to even fire regular-powered .38 specials from a revolver. IMHO it would make more sense to load light wadcutter loads for defense from such a revolver than to not use the gun.

 

[Tequila_Sauer]

I must say, there's something very satisfying about threads like this where the person that is being talked about jumps on and set it straight.

I'm shocked this thread has survived this long, though. I would've guessed this would last maybe 3 pages before being locked.

 

[larry_minn]

I am glad Mr. Ayoob joined in. I saw nothing that would make me upset with him. I also will not carry my reloads UNLESS that is all I have.
Someday I would like to take some of his classes.
IF I ever am in position where time/money allow me to take a class from him and either/both of them are true I would be very upset.
What I have heard (repeatedly from folks who have good rep on forums) is he is a good instructor who can PASS ALONG ideas/grips/moves to students as well as a excellent shot.
AS far as his background. I recall hearing his parents owned a jewlry store and he got a permit for that at early age. Like 99.9% of use with permits he didn't have to shoot anyone.

(added)

I did not post those peoples names who told me of THEIR first hand knowledge of this because I don't have their permission. (and one has passed away) So l left it vague. So Mr. Ayoob is not a saint? Who cares? These same people said they learned a lot from him but those (deleted items by mod) bothered them.
I find it rather funny That I start off agreeing with some of the orig ideas and state clearly I would LIKE to take some classes from him/that he has a LOT to offer students. Heck just leave it there.

 

[OH25shooter]

All I know is cops and civilians speak different, think different and act different. Sure many non-cops love to jump in and claim 'this and that'. This forum like others is full of wanna-be cops. Mr. Ayoob has walked the walk and talked the talk. We may not agree with him, but he should at least be respected for his expertise in the field. Just an opinion from a retired cop. Be safe.

 

[mec]

Ayoob is catching again! I've been reading him since he was new and I wondered " What kind of name for a gunwriter is Massad Ayoob???" Real gunwrites have names like Ken S. Latrans or Waldo Lydeker. (Both of whom turned out to be totally bogus) Ayoob, on the other hand is real. He definately has paid his dues in the gun experts guild. For a while, Texas Concealed handgun instructors had to get individual approval for any media they used in the certification classes. Now, there is a short list of noteworthy sources who are pre-approved across the board. Ayoob is one of them and Smith is another. The cirriculum in the course sounded awfully familiar and while the Ayoob and Cooper names arn't tossed around, if you ask, the academy staff often name them as original sources for some of the material. Commander Rodriguez the director of the Texas Department of Public Safety Academy does a lot of expert witness testimony and sounds just like Ayoob.

When the program was new, Ayoob jumped in and promoted some improvements to the basic course. Got credit for it in the newspapers.