Volunteers 'with heat' to support National Guard

[Stretchman]

The feds regulate the international borders. The states can challenge anyone who trespasses after warning onto private property. It has to be posted, I believe, in order to be legal. Best if it is posted in both english and spanish.

This could give the citizenry a right to detain the illegals, on the basis that they are traspassing on private property, state owned land, etc. Effecting a citizen's arrest on people would be ok, only if it was plainly obvoius that the area that the incursion occured in was not for public thoroughfare. I'd hate to see the mex border end up like checkpoint charlie. Buit if people aren't going to respect the rights of land owners in the area, and trespass.....

It would be statistically impossible to keep people from crossing into the US. No way on earth anyone could make that determination for the people on the other side, in Mexico, Canada, where ever. But, once they have made the conscious decision to cross into the country, then they can be detained. Trying to hold them off at the border will never work. They'll simply cross over every day, and be sent back. It will turn into a game for them.

Detaining them once they have crossed over, as soon as they have crossed over, different story. Ignore them until they are onto private property that is posted no trespassing. Once they have made the incursion, simply detain them and call the local authorities. May take them all day to come around. A few weeks of that, and it won't matter what the feds say can and can't be done on the border. Once inside the US, they are in someone's state. Approach it from that level. Take them in front of the judge, sentence them to do some cleanup of the border area. Then turn them over to BP, and get them sent back. Won't see much of them after that.

Stretch

 

[JLStorm]

What happened to kill em all let god sort em out??? If that were the case, no one would even walk near the borders, its a shame we as a nation have become a bunch of pussies.

I sincerely hope this trend continues until there is either so much public support that the government cannot simply jail someone who fires in self defense at these CRIMINALS invading our borders, or is forced to seriousl increase the NG and allow them to actually defend our borders!

 

[Powderman]

Folks, there is a difference in dealing with CCW issues and this one.

Some of our posters in this thread are conveniently overlooking one small fact:

This is a group, or groups, of ARMED, HOSTILE FOREIGN COMBATANTS ON AMERICAN SOIL.

Some of the same people who are saying, "Well, there had better not be any no-knock raids on MY house!!" are saying, "Well, it's the job of the police/Border Patrol/National Guard to take care of the problem."

I REALLY love the references to the members of the Minutemen as rambos, armchair commandos, etc.

First of all, I'm willing to bet that there are a LOT of Minutemen who were born with the bark on. I'm willing to bet that a majority of the Minutemen are military vets--some of which undoubtedly have combat experience.

For those who say that the invaders have the advantage of a "well-trained, cohesive force", please tell me ONE war that Mexico has been involved in--in the 20th century--where they have sent troops in any significant number. What the heck, in ANY number whatsoever.

So, let's say they organize a force of platoon strength, decide to make a run across the border and play havoc with another checkpoint.

Would they be so quick to do so if they knew that waiting for them was a sizeable number of American citizens--men who had seen enemies over gunsights in places like the Citadel, Hue, Hamburger Hill and the tunnels of Cu Chi--or even more recently, in places like Sadr City, Fallujah, Basra, Baghdad, or even Somalia?

Or, yes, even Joe Sixpack--who might have a home and a bit of land not far from there, knowing that if they were bold enough to cross the border in strength that the next stop would be in HIS backyard? In HIS house? With his FAMILY there?

Oh, hell no, folks! We do NOT need to discourage the Minutemen! We need to cheer these guys and support them! We need thousands--TENS of thousands--of American men--and yes, women too--standing on our border with their arms--the arms that are our RIGHT to own--to defend the borders of this Nation.

Personally, if I had ANY power to do something on a grand scale, I would IMMEDIATELY post at least a Corps-sized element of Army troops--complete with Infantry, Armor, Artillery, Air Defense and support personnel in and around Fort Bliss, TX; a Marine Expeditionary Force in the Gulf, and a squadron of Air Force personnel--B1 and B2 bombers, F15 and F16 fighters, A6's and the whole nine yards, at Holloman AFB. Put USS Missouri and Iowa back on the gunline, filled with cruise missiles, right in the Pacific.

I would then send a message to the Mexican President to IMMEDIATELY cease and desist ALL armed intrusions to American soil. I would warn him that the next invasion--be it ONE combatant or one hundred--would immediately be suppressed and repelled using overwhelming force.

And, that in that case, all those personnel named above would immediately start moving south--and would NOT STOP until they reached the Mexican border--the SOUTHERN one.

In short, Mexico would become the 51st State. I figure it would take about 5 days.

I know that if I happen to be ANYWHERE on the southern border--and see ANYONE taking shots at American Soldiers, or uniformed American Law Enforcement personnel--guess what? Break out the long rifles, boys--it's hunting time. I would ensure that ANYONE who crosses the border into the United States of America, with undeniable hostile intent and by force of arms in MY presence would be in a pool of their own blood in short order.

I took an Oath to defend this Nation. I feel that I am still bound by it, and also by the Code of Conduct:

"I am an American fighting man. I serve in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense...

"I will NEVER forget that I am an American fighting man, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America."

How quickly we forget. Can we do less? Can ANY of us do any less than this?

 

[WinchesterAA]

My question is - assuming a bunch of mexican soldiers runs across the border fully uniformed, and armed, and only one guy is out there to defend it...

if that one guy (this is TOTALLY hypothetical for sake of simplicity) kills all of the soldiers, what's gunna happen to him when all is said and done?

I mean legally, jail, death sentence, made a hero?

I mean, technically MG's shouldn't be regulated whatsoever as per 2A, but they are and people in posession of them without proper payments and hoops jumped through that get caught do go to jail/prison/whatever..

so what's gunna happen to them in the event a firefight ensues under totally "would-be" legal grounds and the Americans doing the shooting manage to survive?

 

[JLStorm]

AMEN Powderman

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Mexican Soldiers?

if that one guy . . . kills all of the soldiers, what's gunna happen to him when all is said and done?

Well, not trying to be flippant here, but since no one's watching the border, who would know?

Well, alright, maybe a little flippant.

They'd probably charge him with at least manslaughter, since he responded with disproportionate force. There were only 30 soldiers, and the defender-guy didn't tie one hand behind his back.

More seriously, I'd buy the guy's book, and vote for him when he ran for president.

 

[WeedWhacker]

What happened to kill em all let god sort em out??? If that were the case, no one would even walk near the borders, its a shame we as a nation have become a bunch of [wimps].

That reminds me of something. Hm. Oh, yes, the Berlin Wall. A free-for-all kill zone just doesn't sit well with me, even with me fully supporting the Minuitemen who are doing the job our fed.gov is required to do, but neglecting.

 

[Davo]

I am still upset that the characterization of the Minute Men as drunken rednecks with guns. The group I have served with has been among some of the finest people Ive met. There are NO rambos, though I have met some real heroes. MOST are well educated and MOST dont carry.
We are in remote areas and may come into contact with unsavory individuals...the same that the NG encountered. I assure you where there are "persons of interest" crossing somewhere nearby there is an anxious coyote or drugrunner who has alot of interest in the goings on along his particular stretch of the line. They are armed...Unlike some of the NG I have met and spoken with.
We are legally free to open carry along this stretch...So I do. The weak argument against the Minute Men is like saying those who carry concealed are looking to gun people down in the streets.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Weedwhacker - Just a point of information... The Berlin wall was constructed to keep it's citizens IN (a function of tyranny). That isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about trying to secure the border of our country and preserve our sovergenty. May sound like semantics but it's an important difference.

While I dislike the notion that civilians are going to have to "get dirty" on this issue, if we really believe in RKBA then I'm afraid this is probably where the ugly "Responsibility" part of our "Right" is going to come into play. If, at it's core, RKBA is to protect us from our government overstepping it's bounds then I think it probably also includes times when our government fails to shoulder it's responsibilities.

Of course the fine balance is to also remember that we are a Constitutional Republic and that we DO have laws so that the checks and balances are maintained even when it's non-governmental civilians trying to shoulder the rope and do the job.

Just as a side note...
"Free for all kill-zone" sounds an awful lot like the rehetoric the anti's use (the streets will run with blood). Morally there is a big difference between saying "this is our line and you are not permitted to pass" (look up "deadline" as a civil war reference) and going out and actively hunting past our border.

Just my opinion.

 

[craig]

well considering the .gov can call an airstrike on some terrorists in africa, but our own guys have to run away from a group of guys crossing OUR border tells me how much the .gov cares about the average citizen here.

 

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

this one's short

OK now that that's out. . . true cdaddy, someone could start something from a skewed perspective. Perhaps it's a matter of deciding who originated the problem and what .gov is doing. You are right, citizens shouldn't be out there. It is FUBAR. That's why citizens are upset down there, the .gov is supposed to be taking care of . . .something.
The guys over on the res, I have a strong suspicion that many of the underlings are illegal, occasionally they get sent out of here (US) for posession of whatever or other crimes. I do know that the drugs were from mex, that's where they are from now. The sickness of corruption, the culture that accompanies hard drug smuggling, the attitude, the inability to assimilate into society. . . these are some of the problems that come over as well. I just hate it for the families on the front line down south who have to think about it a lot more than me.
ST

 

[emitt1]

Here is a second AMEN to Powderman. Well said. Now, let's see if Sarah Brady's bunch shows up here again today.

 

[deadin]

What happened to kill em all let god sort em out??? If that were the case, no one would even walk near the borders, its a shame we as a nation have become a bunch of pussies.

Really worked well in Berlin, didn't it?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

davo

and any other minute men folks. we have only a limited amount of activity from you guys out here. so much of what i think comes from what i see/hear. the videos i link to concern me if you can't control myour group in a mall parking lot armed with signs why should i assume it'll get better in the dark no witnesses and guns?it may well be that the bad actors i see are just wannabes but when you include them you will be judged by their behavior. its not fair but its a reallity of life. i also don't see/hear any happy reaction from mthe guard about the offer of volunteers. and i'm not surprised. there are many unresolved issues with the organization as a whole and i believe that unless the guard asks for help you may well get some folks needlessly killed

 

[Keith Wheeler]

What happened to kill em all let god sort em out??? If that were the case, no one would even walk near the borders, its a shame we as a nation have become a bunch of pussies.

All it takes is one guy like this to join up with the Minutemen and all of a sudden your honorable group of brave, active patriots looks like something a lot less honorable, brave, or patriotic.

It kind of reminds me of those who say "if there really all those moderate Muslims, why don't we hear them denounce the tear-ists?". Same thing.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Trying to hold them off at the border will never work. They'll simply cross over every day, and be sent back. It will turn into a game for them.

Ike saw the same problem, but he solved it quite easily. In Operation Wetback he had a fleet of ships which did nothing else but transport huge numbers of rounded up illegal aliens and didn't return them to the northern border of Mexico, but the SOUTHERN border. These people got so frustrated, they forgot about any ideas of entering America, and the problem was solved. The people in power today want you to think there is no solution so you will give up asking them for one. The truth is that they like this situation just fine, and don't want it to change. Any halfway intelligent person could solve this problem, given the resources of the United States Government. Don't believe them when they tell you there is not good solution. It only takes the will. They have ulterior motives for leaving things the way they are, against the will of the American people.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

close but factually a lil off

hawkeye? how many ships make up a fleet? more than 2? how many did they haul off?

these are trick questions

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

this give you the warm fuzzys?

"Swing oversaw the Border patrol, and organized state and local officials along with the police. The object of his intense border enforcement were "illegal aliens," but common practice of Operation Wetback focused on Mexicans in general. The police swarmed through Mexican American barrios throughout the southeastern states. Some Mexicans, fearful of the potential violence of this militarization, fled back south across the border. In 1954, the agents discovered over 1 million illegal immigrants.

In some cases, illegal immigrants were deported along with their American-born children, who were by law U.S. citizens. The agents used a wide brush in their criteria for interrogating potential aliens. They adopted the practice of stopping "Mexican-looking" citizens on the street and asking for identification. This practice incited and angered many U.S. citizens who were of Mexican American descent. Opponents in both the United States and Mexico complained of "police-state" methods, and Operation Wetback was abandoned."
http://www.pbs.org/kpbs/theborder/history/timeline/20.html

 

[crazed_ss]

Yea.. Another Operation "Wetback" would go over great.
How do you plan to seperate the illegals of Hispanic decent without trampling or intruding on the rights/privacy of US CITIZENS of Hispanic decent?

I love how everyone is always up in arms about DUI checkpoints and stuff like that, but have no problem going into neighboorhoods and demanding papers from people with brown skin (that's what they did during Operation Wetback)

Sorry, but going into neighboorhoods and "rounding people up" is not a realistic solution.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

don't

spoil the fantasy!
sides some guys can tell! we had a "lady up here tried to tell me she could tell when the folks passing her on the road going the other way were illegal, and she meant it! she was funny as some of the folk here, in a tragic way, kinda like a jeff foxworthy skit only she was driving a minivan full of kids

 

[Davo]

Cassandrasdaddy from what I have seen the MM have taken a media bashing from day one. Ive recently heard the phrase "when your taking flak you must be over target". The MM was characterized as a bunch of vigilantes by Bush, Arnold, Alberto R. Gonzales, the border patrol, and the local news.

For the MM to exist and have a viable use makes the government uneasy and paints them as incompetent.
We have exposed the open door that is our southern border. We began to first re route and then decrease the crossings in our sectors. We didnt shoot anyone or get anyone killed. We actually SAVED the lives of some crossers who required medical attention. We dot the border when the NG and BP changes shift. We GOT the respect and thanks of the BP and NG (they cant say it publicly, but tell me nearly every time I see them "thanks for being here"). I have spend many hours with both groups on the border. We have made a difference. Id do it even if I was restricted from carrying arms. I do it now though its dangerous because it needs doing.
Like I said Ive not seen yahoos, but have heard of them and they are not tolerated by the MM. 90 miles south of my home ANYONE can WALK through a creekbed into the US and go anywhere from there. My 60 year old mom has to pull her shoes off at the airport, and thinks this is keeping her safe. I have not told her of the prayer mats and Koran that was found on my section of border.

 

[JLStorm]

This is an article from May, stating that the US Government is alerting the Mexican Govermenment as to where the civilian border patrols will be so that none of the Mexican's rights are violated...I feel like Im going to puke: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194769,00.html

Civilian Border Patrol Operations Reported to Mexico

Tuesday, May 09, 2006

LOS ANGELES — The U.S. Border Patrol is alerting the Mexican government to the locations of civilian border patrol groups when the organizations help detain suspected illegal immigrants or use violence against them, according to a published report.

U.S. Customs and Border Protection spokesman Mario Martinez told the Inland Valley Daily Bulletin of Ontario that the policy is meant to assure the Mexican government that migrants' rights are being observed.

The policy pertains to groups including the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps and the Friends of the Border Patrol, a Chino-based nonprofit.

"It's not a secret where the Minuteman volunteers are going to be," Martinez said Monday. "This ... simply makes two basic statements -- that we will not allow any lawlessness of any type, and that if an alien is encountered by a Minuteman or arrested by the Minuteman, then we will allow that government to interview the person."

Minuteman members, however, said the Border Patrol's policy negates the private group's effectiveness and could endanger their lives.

"Now we know why it seemed like Mexican officials knew where we were all the time," said Chris Simcox, the organization's founder. "It's unbelievable that our own government agency is sending intelligence to another country. They are sending intelligence to a nation where corruption runs rampant, and that could be getting into the hands of criminal cartels."

On another note, I saw this on a shirt and think its great:

 

[kungfuhippie]

Ir regards to opperation wetback, How about the first part? where they inforced the law at the work place and then hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens fled back to mexico on their own, not just the ones caught. I'm sick of people talking bad about racial profiling. If 75% of illegal aliens are hispanic, wouldn't it make sense to look in hispanic neighborhoods? I don't cry about dui check points. Just like when I was taking pictures at the train station and a woman told me I had to delete her photo "cause it's illegal to take her picture without consent". She was in the public eye and therefore my photo of her was perfectly legal, if I hid in her house and then took a photo of her in her home the photo would be "illegal" unless she consented. But this is just a can of worms. Illegal is illegal. Most criminals are repeat offenders, so someone who will break the law by crossing into our country illegally is more likely to break the law again.

If the Berlin wall was so ineffective, why'd they bother to tear it down? It kept the west and the east seperate. A wall would work great to keep the south from flooding into the north. It just isn't a "feel good" thing to do. The idea of a wall/fence/inforcement makes some people's hearts bleed, never mind all the socio-economic issues it would solve.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

you in favor

of military sweeps? grabbing kids who are citizens and shipping them out too?
my bil worked in one of those raided meat packing plants where the pulled the buses in and detained everyone for hours while they sorted and shipped out a few hunddred folks who couldn't prove status. left their kids in schools and daycares. hundred of kids stuck with no parents. hmmm makes me proud to be an american

 

[Biker]

Actually, 90% of all illegals are hispanic. Keep raiding the businesses, I say. *Do it for the children - American children*.

Sorry Cdaddy, my heartstrings weren't tugged.

Biker