Which SHTF Pistol: Glock or 1911?

[newfalguy101]

YES!

 

[drf]

drf

 

[dsk]

The problem I have with this thread is, what exactly would constitute SHTF? A nuclear war? Breakdown of society? Simply being caught in the middle of a riot? All the above? I can think of many scenarios where a well-tuned 1911 would have the edge if I needed rifle-type accuracy and also needed a platform I could also use .22LR ammo for small game hunting (survivalist scenario). But if caught in the middle of total urban chaos I'd want as high a magazine capacity as I could get, so I'd want a Glock 19/17 with 33-round magazines! But as can be seen, neither a 1911 nor a Glock is really ideal, nor are any other handguns. If you're caught in the middle of a true SHTF scenario and all you have on you is a pistol, you're still in big trouble.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Also hard to argue w/ the capacity advantage of the Glocks.

Funny, I could've sworn double-column 1911's hold 14 .45's, 16 .40/10mm and 18 9mm (Glocks are 13, 15 and 17 respectively). And that does not include extended mags. The capacity debate is a non-issue these days when you're talking full-size guns.

As to folks going with ease of operation, the manual of arms for a 1911 is very simple. And if you really believe DAO is the way to go, there are 1911's for you as well.

Face it, there is a 1911 variant for just about every purpose, and they do their job well. You think special op's guys and SWAT members go with 1911's because they don't know about Glocks? One of the reasons many LE agancies moved away from 1911's was because uniformed officers carrying C&L has become un-PC. It is not because the 1911 suddenly became obsolete in the face of tactical tupperware.

 

[dsk]

Glocks have two advantages over most other pistols: light weight and high ammunition capacity. 1911's have the advantage of excellent durability, quick-resetting trigger to make accurate repeat shots, and weight that makes the powerful .45ACP manageable.

Take your choice.

 

[thealien]

Here's Bigbore's Glock 21 torture thread at AR15.com

Regardless of your thoughts, you've got to read this thread!!!

 

[glocker1911]

Here's a case of putting "my money where my vote is". I traded my GI Springer and a new Glock G22 for a Sig GSR Revolution today. It is my new ccw, which means it would be my SHTF go to also. As nice as Glocks are, and I am a big fan of their pistols, I have the utmost confidence in this new 1911, and will never look back on mychoice. Good luck with your choice.

 

[one45auto]

Although I love my Colt Series 80, if the SHTF I'd grab my Glock 19 without a moments hesitation. Why, you ask?

Reason #1

My Glock 19 fires reliably even when absolutely filthy. I cannot say the same for the Colt.

Reason #2

The Glock 19 fires any 9mm round I care to chamber, whereas the Colt is a finnicky eater. If I have to scrouge for ammo, what are the odds I'll find something it likes?

 

[Black Majik]

Yes, clearly the 1911 is not a reliable gun, which is why the US army carried it through 2 world wars, Korea and Vietnam and continues to use it in special op's. Can you think of a more harsh environment for a gun than the jungles of Southern Asia or the salt water of the South Pacific?

All of my 1911's, except for my Colt Mk IV, have been exemplory. I am not suggesting that a Glock is not a reliable gun. Of course, how many 1911's have Ka-Boomed using correct factory ammo in a gun from a decent manufacturer?

Now that I'm done arguing this point, I would take my S&W 1006 over all the rest of my autos in a do-or-die situation. Reliable, Durable, Accurate, Powerful. 'Nuff said

For SHTF or TEOTWAWKI, my AR-10 .

I'm not saying the 1911 isn't reliable. I just feel that in the long run, the Glock will be more reliable without the maintenance required. Just my opinion, but I feel the 1911 is a pretty high maintenance gun. If it gets dirty, I feel the 1911 has more of a chance to malfunction than a dirty 1911.

But for the record, I have more of 1911s in my collection than any other gun I own. I love and praise the 1911. I have no Glocks in my possession, yet I still feel that while under range conditions (shoot few hundred rounds, go home and clean) a 1911 is very reliable. But once the constant carrying starts, little or no maintenance begins, the Glock would be able to function more reliably with outside elements better than the 1911.

Both are, or can be VERY reliable firearms, but in super TEOTWAWKI/SHTF conditions, raining midgets, dragons hovering above conditions, I'd still rather have a Glock over a 1911, because I personally feel that a Glock can take more abuse than the average CURRENT PRODUCTION 1911s.

 

[GILROY]

Neither, My SIG 226 9mm in my belt and AK in my hand. SIG holds a bunch of rounds, plus I can hit well with it. AK keeps bad crowds at bay. Plenty of ammo out there for both. I probably would have my Wilson KZ-45 and my HK USPF strapped on somewhere as well. Too nice to leave behind. Sell a Glock
(since you have plenty) and buy a SIG or HK. You will be surprised how well you can shoot! Don't get me wrong, I respect Glocks highly. I have owned at least 10 in the past. But, last count, I don't own any at the moment.

 

[boots]

TomN, good for you...

you know how to use the smilies. besides quoting me, and using that silly little smilie, you have any thoughts you want to contribute to this thread? i guess your guns being near extreme heat in a SHTF scenario is an impossibility for you. wow, lucky you. for me, i try to think about all possible scenarios.

 

[SACOLT]

Well it looks like for me, 1911 or Ruger revolvers and a S&W model 19 because that's what I own right now.

 

[Big Mike]

Glock. Mike

 

[TomN]

you know how to use the smilies. besides quoting me, and using that silly little smilie, you have any thoughts you want to contribute to this thread? i guess your guns being near extreme heat in a SHTF scenario is an impossibility for you. wow, lucky you. for me, i try to think about all possible scenarios.

If your house was going to be bombed I would think ANY firearm would be ruined, not just plastic ones. And of course in that kinda heat your ammo would burn off too. I think you'd have worse things to worry about than melted plastic.

Oh and I would still choose the Glock.

 

[boots]

go read my first post.

i said that if there were bombs, there could be fires. these fires could then spread to your home. i never said that your house would be bombed. don't start putting words in my post. if your house was bombed, you'd have bigger worries than plastic vs. steel. however, even if a house was bombed directly i think steel might have a better chance at surviving than plastic. finding your steel pistol through all the ruble would be difficult though.

 

[TimboKhan]

Old Dog,

Well, ya know, TimboKhan, throw your Glock on the grill

First off, I don't own a Glock, nor will I ever own a Glock as I personally find them uncomfortable. As it happens, I do in fact own a Taurus 24/7, but if you really want to know what my current SHTF gun is, its my Ruger P90. Sure, I suppose that if I take to testing guns by throwing them on a grill, the 1911 would probably fare better. However, if I really had to have a SHTF gun, it wouldn't be an auto, period. It would be a revolver, with a 4 inch barrel, in .357. The pros and cons for carrying a revolver are well documented, and I feel the pros outweigh the cons by a large margin. However, when it comes to Autos, I personally wouldn't choose either of those two models. Each are perfectly fine, and if either are your bag, well, then good for you. For me, I will take a P90 over either any day of the week. Your point about the house/car fire is excellent, however. Can anyone tell me how the extreme heat that either would generate would effect a steel gun (ANY steel gun), if at all?

real experts understand that magazine capacity is not the issue. Training, mindset and shot placement render the question of mag capacity pretty much moot

To show that I am not intentionally zeroing in on Old Dog, I agree with this sentiment 100%. Also, for the chap (and anyone else that uses this argument) that earlier pointed out that the military used 1911's through 2 World Wars, Vietnam, etc... Please people, for the love of god, keep in mind that the military used a 1911 that is WORLDS apart from your average Kimber, or Wilson or whatever. The military gun was built loose and is thus considerably more tolerant under a wide variety of conditions. Your new 1911's, while not necessarily bad guns (like anything, some are, some aren't), are not particularly representative of the long and storied history of the 1911, at least as I see it. If I were to choose a 1911 for any purpose, SHTF or otherwise, I would want my gun to be a whole lot closer to the loosey-goosey military issue standard. The only exception would be a better set of sights. I don't care who won what and when with those rinky-dink old sights: They are awful, and no one will ever convince me otherwise (although, to date, no one has really ever disagreed with that sentiment). In conclusion, gentlemen, we are all partial to particular guns, and for the most part, no one is gonna budge us off our particular tree. At least those of us who participate in this discussion are aware that we need to be prepared, and in the end, thats all that really matters. Old Dog, I formally pass the peace pipe to you. We obviously disagree, but at least if you and I are in the same neck of the woods when the SHTF, we will both prepared, which is more than can be said of the average guy.

 

[jlh26oo]

For me, I will take a P90 over either any day of the week.

Massad? Is that you?

 

[hube1236]

Armed Citizen Report from Nola

I did not engage any of the bad guys, but I did have my 1911 on my hip and my Socom 16 in my arms while I did nightly walks thorough my neighborhood when I was the only one here, and I did it under the auspice of the Guard and cops. One less neighborhood to babysit, I guess.

That being said, I did have coffee multiple times with the Airborn guys that were sent down here- amazing how much slack you are cut when you give the patrol a cup of coffee and some doughnuts when they are walking the streets.

I am a 1911 fan, and I have torutured tested each one I carry and I got in excess of 1200 rounds through my Springer before I have extraction problems with my reloads. A tooth pick to clean the residue out was all it took. I do not think that a person who chooses a gun for its reputed reliability without testing it is just plain stupid. If you Glockers have not shot 1000s of rounds in between cleaning, or have buried your gun in the sand, then don't cloud the discussion with the stories of freezing a gun in ice for 5000 years and defrosting it and then going with the Nuge to hunt boar in Africa. It is about your guns; you may pick a brand based on rep, but I would no sooner take your Glock over my 1911 if I have not tested it.

I used the NOLA thing at the beginning not to say that I am an expert at something, but anyone in a shtf scenario is not going to to be shooting a 1000 continuous rounds in an engagement, just wear a target if you are IPSC through the crowd and looking for targets. Your job is to get away and fight tomorrow. If it is your last stand, then you are going down against a crowd of determined people. Somalia Rangers were better trained than most of us, and a few good guys still went down, and it was not because they had short barrelled M-4 or barrettas with slides that hit you in the teeth. The job is to get a way and live to see another day. In between those fights, regardless of your shtf scenario, you are just plain deserving of a painful and greusome death if you do not care for your weapon. Every downtime is preparing your choice for the next engagement, so even if you exhaust your 30x33rnd mags for your glock while you are standing in the middle of a street shooting a ring of death around you, and your glock can go another 1000 rounds in between cleanings, you would clean your weapon.

I agree that there is problem with SHTF scenario, some of us are talking an hour of shooting, some are talking doomsday. I am taking what I can carry and my choice is rifle ammo and my 1911 to fight a little bit before I take that last one for myself (little John Waynish).

Regardless of what you take, know it. And be real with the engagement, most of us would be cowering in the shadows until it was clear to move. Or at least wait until the crown is not 1000 heineken drinkers, but a little more realistic in survivability.

Good luck with your glock / 1911. Stay alive until tomorrow.

 

[Beethoven]

I'm not saying the 1911 isn't reliable. I just feel that in the long run, the Glock will be more reliable without the maintenance required. Just my opinion, but I feel the 1911 is a pretty high maintenance gun. If it gets dirty, I feel the 1911 has more of a chance to malfunction than a dirty 1911.

But for the record, I have more of 1911s in my collection than any other gun I own. I love and praise the 1911. I have no Glocks in my possession, yet I still feel that while under range conditions (shoot few hundred rounds, go home and clean) a 1911 is very reliable. But once the constant carrying starts, little or no maintenance begins, the Glock would be able to function more reliably with outside elements better than the 1911.

Both are, or can be VERY reliable firearms, but in super TEOTWAWKI/SHTF conditions, raining midgets, dragons hovering above conditions, I'd still rather have a Glock over a 1911, because I personally feel that a Glock can take more abuse than the average CURRENT PRODUCTION 1911s.

Thanks for your post, but if you don't even OWN a Glock, how can you comment on this?

Further, have you even tested your 1911 to see how it will perform when dirty?

Like even firing several hundred rounds through it without cleaning and seeing how it does?

 

[Beethoven]

I am a 1911 fan, and I have torutured tested each one I carry and I got in excess of 1200 rounds through my Springer before I have extraction problems with my reloads. A tooth pick to clean the residue out was all it took. I do not think that a person who chooses a gun for its reputed reliability without testing it is just plain stupid. If you Glockers have not shot 1000s of rounds in between cleaning, or have buried your gun in the sand, then don't cloud the discussion with the stories of freezing a gun in ice for 5000 years and defrosting it and then going with the Nuge to hunt boar in Africa. It is about your guns; you may pick a brand based on rep, but I would no sooner take your Glock over my 1911 if I have not tested it.

I used the NOLA thing at the beginning not to say that I am an expert at something, but anyone in a shtf scenario is not going to to be shooting a 1000 continuous rounds in an engagement, just wear a target if you are IPSC through the crowd and looking for targets. Your job is to get away and fight tomorrow. If it is your last stand, then you are going down against a crowd of determined people. Somalia Rangers were better trained than most of us, and a few good guys still went down, and it was not because they had short barrelled M-4 or barrettas with slides that hit you in the teeth. The job is to get a way and live to see another day. In between those fights, regardless of your shtf scenario, you are just plain deserving of a painful and greusome death if you do not care for your weapon. Every downtime is preparing your choice for the next engagement, so even if you exhaust your 30x33rnd mags for your glock while you are standing in the middle of a street shooting a ring of death around you, and your glock can go another 1000 rounds in between cleanings, you would clean your weapon.

I agree that there is problem with SHTF scenario, some of us are talking an hour of shooting, some are talking doomsday. I am taking what I can carry and my choice is rifle ammo and my 1911 to fight a little bit before I take that last one for myself (little John Waynish).

Regardless of what you take, know it. And be real with the engagement, most of us would be cowering in the shadows until it was clear to move. Or at least wait until the crown is not 1000 heineken drinkers, but a little more realistic in survivability.

Good luck with your glock / 1911. Stay alive until tomorrow.

This man brings up two great points that, up until now, haven't been touched upon:

1) The fact that most people who are posting in this thread (myself included) have not tested their guns to see what they are capable of. Heck, some people posting in this thread don't even OWN a Glock or 1911!

2) The assumption that a SHTF scenario consists of nothing but firing thousands and thousands of rounds, pausing only to bury your gun in the dirt/mud.

In reality, we will have at least SOME downtime, and the FIRST priority during that downtime, even above eating, should be weapons maintenance, right?

Isn't that how it works in the military? Maintain your weapon religiously?

Well, I fail to see how or why it should be different for the rest of us.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Somebody with a lot more money than me should buy a G21 and a Springer Mil-Spec, a few dozen Quality mags for each, a few crates of ammo and hire a handful of folks to load magazines. Then they should go shoot each gun until it fails. (I'll volunteer for the shooting position )

I'm betting either gun could fire tens of thousands of rounds with virtually no maintenance and have only a handful of hiccups.

I have yet to take a side in this discussion and have only mentioned that Glocks have a higher failure rate than quality 1911's (meaning Ka-Booms). The G-22 I had was 100% reliable, as is my Kimber Stainless target II 10mm. I personally prefer my Kimber by a wide margin. That said, I would rather carry a Glock than my Kimber because I would not feel bad if it got sratched/dinged/otherwise damaged or confiscated. I dropped my Kimber one time and nearly went into cardiac arrest for fear that I had marred the finish. It is a range queen. But in a life or death situation, this would not be a concern. I would have taken my Kimber or one of my other 1911's over the Glock for many reasons, reliability not one of them.

In reality, a SHTF scenario for most of us will be a case of self defense with 1-3 opponents. In this case, our SHTF weapon is our CCW, whatever it may be. That makes mine a Witness Compact 10mm or Taurus PT145MP, depending on weather (clothing). Anything more grave than this will likely have ample warning and a handgun would not be my first choice.

 

[dsk]

Also, for the chap (and anyone else that uses this argument) that earlier pointed out that the military used 1911's through 2 World Wars, Vietnam, etc... Please people, for the love of god, keep in mind that the military used a 1911 that is WORLDS apart from your average Kimber, or Wilson or whatever. The military gun was built loose and is thus considerably more tolerant under a wide variety of conditions. Your new 1911's, while not necessarily bad guns (like anything, some are, some aren't), are not particularly representative of the long and storied history of the 1911, at least as I see it. If I were to choose a 1911 for any purpose, SHTF or otherwise, I would want my gun to be a whole lot closer to the loosey-goosey military issue standard.

I think at this point it's worth saying that we as a group need to come to terms what what we really want or need in this market. The reason why new 1911's are made so tight is because everybody WANTS them that way. We all want a pistol that shoots 1" groups at 50 yards, and the manufacturers aim to please. I swear, the next poster on 1911 Forum who goes and sneers at Colts for being "too loose" or "not as tight as their Kimber" is going to be personally b****-slapped by me the moment I find out their address. New Colts often have cosmetic anomalies or other minor issues, but almost nobody complains about their reliability. I wonder why?

 

[Old Dog]

Good point. During the past fifteen years or so (pretty much since the military transitioned from the 1911 to the M-9), and since the advent of the "semi-custom" production 1911 (i.e., Kimbers Custom, Springfield Loaded, et al), I've become thoroughly amused by the fact that there's now a generation of gun-owners and shooters out there who believe in their hearts that 1911s simply aren't as reliable as other platforms (I won't mention the G-word again).

When I was coming up as a new shooter (in my teens, circa mid-70s) and shortly thereafter being trained by my esteemed USMC colleagues in the art of the pistol, we were trained to expect malfunctions while shooting firearms. This was never taught as "fact" that any one type of gun more commonly experienced problems than any other, simply an acceptance that, as with all things mechanical, there may be malfunctions from time to time.

Hence, we were taught the proper way to clear jams and those us of who lived with our 1911s were taught a few tricks of the trade as far as improving performance. The bottom line is, in the old days, we were taught that we could deal with any problems with our firearms. Now, it seems the new generation expects out-of-the-box perfection, and will routinely bash any platform that they do not deem worthy. Frankly, to me, this is just the lazy shooter's way of accepting the fact that if he has problems with his equipment, it's his equipment's fault, and therefore, he is helpless.

Sigh.

 

[ranger7]

I've owned several Glocks and 1911s. I currently own one of each and shoot them both well (for me).

In a SHTF scenario, I wouldn't hesitate to grab my G21 before the Sringfield 1911A1. I consider them both to accuate and reliable. Just the 13+1 mag capacity over 7+1 or 8+1 is enough to sell it for me. In a SHTF scenario I have to prepare for worst case which to me is multiple perps and possibly no other guns available.

 

[Borachon]

polymer will melt and warp

How bad did the SHTF? By that, I mean...are cars still running or did EMP fry everything?

I understand that in the Warsaw ghetto uprising, it was common to hide your firearms inside a stove, up a chimney or buried at the base of a chimney. That way, if the house was destroyed or burned out, the weapon might survive and the chimney would serve as a location marker for where the weapon was at.

Also, one of the classic methods of smuggling items is to put them under your car hood...secreted under some oily and dirty part of the motor (or hot part of the motor). In a survival situation, you might actually NEED to store your gun in a hot place. The trunk and all the other parts of the car can be searched easily. Thieves...or others....might hesitate to take off the air filter cover or push their hands on top of the oil pan in order to search. So I'll ask now...do you feel confident laying your Glock on a part of the engine for 3 hours? (I've been at some checkpoints that lasted longer) If you ain't 100% confident....well, just think on it.


I guess what I'm saying is that the materials that go into the construction of my weapon are important, and I'd rather err on the side of proven durability versus more modern, but with less track history.

I'd vote 1911.