Why Hollow Points instead of FMJ or Soft Point Ammunition?

Do you use FMJ bullets or HP`s for your protection?

  • Full Metal Jackets

    Votes: 8 5.8%
  • Hollow points

    Votes: 131 94.2%

  • Total voters
    139
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Yeah I have to agree with Soybomb that this thread may have more misinformation than any I've seen recently.

I especially can't believe how many people seem to be ok with staggering rounds in a magazine between FMJ and JHP. Recoil feedback will, in my experience, be different enough that accuracy and follow-up shots will suffer from moderately to dramatically. POI may differ between the two rounds... and I wonder how a jury would look at your exotic ammunition choices (and the fact that no respected military or police unit in the world, to the best of my knowledge, carries out this practice does appear to me to make this an exotic ammunition choice). That's an interesting question to have to answer on the record.

The effectiveness of handguns and ammunition can be difficult to nail down due to the stigma of actually shooting living things for testing, but still, research HAS been done and I will base my defensive ammunition and firearm choices on credible research rather than what some guy - on the internet, at the range, in my family, whatever - told me.

I really am flabbergasted by this whole thread. Reading it is like watching a train wreck.
 
Jesus, is it time for this thread again already?

"Shoot him in the shoulder"???? I'm starting to smell troll.
 
Actualy for pistol rounds it really is quite simple (rifles wounds have extra factors.)
You need a round that penetrates deep enough to reach vital areas to stop an attacker against thier will. While a wound or gunshot will stop some of thier own free will many times (and simply that possiblity even more times), others will be determined and the body actualy needs to be stopped.
For some smaller calibers what penetrates to vital areas can be a FMJ. Many of the calibers used though for self defense have more penetration than necessary to reach vital areas, which is wasted. How do you make good use of that wasted energy? You use it to create a wider diameter wound.
The wider a caliber for a given amount of energy the more resistance the bullet faces, and the less penetration.
Since most defensive calibers penetrate deeper than necessary to reach organs, they benefit greatly from expanding projectiles against the average individual.

There is also the shape of the projectile. Neither JHP or FMJ shapes are ideal shapes for tissue destruction, but JHP is better as it is opening up. Smooth soft edges allow tissue to flow around. Sharp edges and irregular shapes cut even the tissue that flows around the projectile.


So JHP are usualy better for most defensive calibers. They give a wider diameter wound in the more important inches of penetration.

They`re taught that this bullet will normally enter the body at a distance of about 4-6 inches.
Not sure what is meant by that, whether be fired from that distance away (not correct as most gunfights happen from a few few away) or penetrate to that depth. I am going to assume you mean penetrate to that depth, which is actualy more accurate than many here realize.

Most rounds penetrate about 4-8" even though they penetrate 12-16" in ballistic gel. That is because ballistic gel simulates soft tissue, and does not account for bone, like ribs, slightly higher density skin, or changes in medium. When a projectile changes through different density mediums it is also slowed more than taken into account in simple equations. Just like a bullet will travel less distance in water fired from above water into water, than if fired under water. The change between mediums deflects and causes a loss of some energy. Well the body has very different internal mediums, some organs are elastic, some are not, some are light and soft, some are hard and dense.
Some people are built very solid. Some are covered in dense muscle, some more in not dense fat.
Now a round will usualy penetrate more total inches in a fat person because fat is not very dense. So you could say it penetrates 12 in one person, while it woudl go 6 in a thinner more solid individual. So you really cannot make general statements for all people since everyone is constructed differently. There is some very solid thin people, and some very soft large people. You have more lightly built female frames, and denser male frames.

In general though the round will reliably penetrate about 6" of dense tissue in a healthy person even if in gel tests it does near double. It may have to smash into ribs, and go through different mediums. Sometimes it will go further, depending on what is hit. You shouldn't rely on sometimes though. 6 inches of dense tissue is just fine in most cases. Unless they are body builders, or wearing body armor, or as in the case of the North Hollywood shootout are body builders and wearing body armor.
You never know when some massive body builder like a 'Tookie' that normaly just beats people to death in parks may throw on some body armor, grab a shotgun, and kill you because you are "white" or a "Buddha-head" (asian) or something similar. In such cases you may want a little extra penetration. Of course legislation has generaly decided you can't have it in a concealable portable package chambered in common defensive calibers anyways. '18 USC sec. 921(a)(17)'

Most people get so used to citing ballistic gel penetration that they forget it is not the same as human body penetration. Ballistic gel penetration is a very helpful reference point, but not that same thing. Expansion also can be very different when the round impacts clothing, gets slightly crushed and deformed on a rib or other bone, and then enters into tissue. They don't all end up as perfectly opened uniform petals like the pictures of them shot into water or uniform gel.


The best defensive rounds would actualy be those that contain thier own explosive energy. You could fire a projectile with far more energy on target than recoil created at firing. Such projectiles though are also not legal. If they were much weaker calibers would become the minimum reliable defensive calibers. You could have .22 rounds for example that penetrated inches before detonating and creating a small crater in the target. The technology is simple and could be widely fielded tommorrow.
An old grandma with severe arthritis could deliver energy from a .22 pistol that rivals that from much more powerful defensive calibers using traditional rounds.
Our wise overlords though have decided that is unsuitable, and you must deal with increased recoil for increase terminal performance, and citizens must work on improving obsolete bullet designs which are what we call the "latest in bullet technology". Manufactures have created some decent expanding ammunition with those limitations.

The military uses rounds similar to what I described in vehicles known as HE projectiles. They are technicaly banned internationaly for infantry (but not fired from vehicles, the rules are designed to favor the more powerful forces, and limit the less powerful) anti personal roles though there is still some used in that capacity. The Raufoss Mk 211 is used in an anti personal role on occasion and is a similar round.
Similar projectiles in small pistol calibers would be very effective for civilian self defense against a wider range of targets, and could be effectively used from low recoiling calibers.
It really is legislation that limits effectiveness, by limiting the technology that can be employed in projectile designs.
The latest civilian legal rounds are just making the best of restrictive regulations, they are far from ideal, or the best with the technology available.
 
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Not sure what is meant by that, whether be fired from that distance away (not correct as most gunfights happen from a few few away) or penetrate to that depth. I am going to assume you mean penetrate to that depth, which is actualy more accurate than many here realize.

Most rounds penetrate about 4-8" even though they penetrate 12-16" in ballistic gel. That is because ballistic gel simulates soft tissue, and does not account for bone, like ribs, slightly higher density skin, or changes in medium. When a projectile changes through different density mediums it is also slowed more than taken into account in simple equations. Just like a bullet will travel less distance in water fired from above water into water, than if fired under water. The change between mediums deflects and causes a loss of some energy. Well the body has very different internal mediums, some organs are elastic, some are not, some are light and soft, some are hard and dense.
Some people are built very solid. Some are covered in dense muscle, some more in not dense fat.
Now a round will usualy penetrate more total inches in a fat person because fat is not very dense. So you could say it penetrates 12 in one person, while it woudl go 6 in a thinner more solid individual. So you really cannot make general statements for all people since everyone is constructed differently. There is some very solid thin people, and some very soft large people. You have more lightly built female frames, and denser male frames.
Thank you zoogster. It`s difficult to tell people something that is different from what they`ve always known as "fact" without creating a storm.
Zoogster, I just read your post to my B`nLaw and he said that he recognized a few of those examples about the transfer of energy and loss caused by the different mediums. Did you see a film on this? Just curious.


I agree with you 100%
I understand that with all of the undoubtable facts of ballistics found online, how one could be lead estray.

My point of non lethal firing is simply based on ethics. I can`t say what any john smith will do in any situation.
I know that the books say one thing but if I really knew that I had the upper hand in a kill or not kill situation, I wouldn`t. And no one can say for 100% surity that they "know" what anyone else would or would not do.
 
if I really knew that I had the upper hand in a kill or not kill situation, I wouldn`t

Man, you really aren't getting what almost everyone responding to your thread has told you - you WILL NOT know that you have the upper hand. You will be fighting desperately for survival and, if you hesitate, try to hit a non-critical structure, anything like that, you may well end up dead for your weakness. If you chose ammunition that is accepted as general fact to be less effective against human targets - FMJ ammunition in a major caliber defensive handgun - and ever have to rely on it in a life-and-death situation, you may well pay with your life. That's what almost everyone here has told you, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in.

If you really want to argue with generally accepted fact, if you really want to take the one or two posts out of a 3-page thread that agree with your backwards self-defense ideas, then I don't think ANYONE on this forum can help you, because you've already decided and won't listen to reason.

God help you if you ever have to actually use a gun in a defensive situation, and God help any of us who are nearby.
 
Yes I do get it. But how do you know what the situation will be??? Don`t try to tell me that you know what happens in every situation cause you don`t.
I`ve read all of these posts and I`ve not bashed anyone but you are the one missing the point.
EXAMPLE: You are called to a convenience store where a retarded person has decided to camp. You approach him and see that he`s armed with a knife but also that he`s not all there. He stands and will not drop it. You spray pepper spray, it doesn`t work. You ask over and over and he will not drop it. He approaches you slowly with the knife. Do you shoot him in the chest??? or try to "wound" him by firing at non-vitals or even fire at all?? You know that you have the right to do so but is it necessary?? Thats all I`ve been saying. Every situation is different and NOBODY knows the perfect answer for each because there`s not one answer. The fact of there being only one conclusion to any situation seems to be the difference in what I`m saying and what you are saying. Fine if you disagree, I`m perfectly fine with that.
You also say that people die from a leg wound. Yes they do. My friend was cut on the inside of his thigh and he died in 15 minutes. But we`re stuck on the cop subject so, If a cop is on a scene, there are many, many others coming and that know he`s there. He shoots a person in the leg, foot, shoulder, etc. and and ambulance is on the way which increases the perps chance of survival.
David killed Goliath with a rock. I understand.


Just because you can, are allowed, the law says you can, you have the right to,.... doesn`t mean that you ALWAYS should or will. Cops wear protective items and most are very capable of accurate firing of their weapons.
No matter how you put it, every situation is different. There`s a difference in fighting for your life by struggling for your gun just as it happened in my area last year.
A cop gets in a tussle with a perp , the guy knocks the cop down and pulls a gun , points it at his face and the gun jammed. The perp got up and ran and the cop shot him in the rib cage which killed him instantly. Many said that the cop shouldn`t have shot the guy. I believe he did the right thing. BIG DIFFERENCE
God help you if you can`t understand this by now. There`s a time to kill and there`s a time not to kill. This can`t be that difficult to understand.
Now twist and turn this one.....have fun.lolol
 
You are called to a convenience store
A non-LEO will not be "called to a convenience store" to apprehend your armed retard. On the other hand, a LEO has a bunch more tools at his disposal.

If you want to talk about scenarios, head over to the S&T sub-forum here. Guy has a knife and won't leave? How about everyone else leaves and call in the "cavalry." There are myriad solutions to such a problem: some do not rise to the level of lethal force, and some do.

Do you shoot him in the chest??? or try to "wound" him by firing at non-vitals??
If you didn't need to shoot him somewhere that would actually stop him (and stop him being a threat), then why did you need to use lethal force at all? That'll be a good one to explain to the judge and jury.

Cops wear protective items and most are very capable of accurate firing of their weapons.
My experience at LEO-only competition events does not support this.
 
You are missing the point yourself, sir. Please, understand, there are THREE parts to any self defense usage of DEADLY PHYSICAL FORCE, which is what you are discussing using. One is purchase and training, second is the actualy shooting, third is the court battle.
Deadly physical force is defined by my state as that force which use is likely to cause death or serious physical injury.
Note, there is no distinction WHERE or HOW the force is used, merely that it IS used.
So, the individual with the deadly weapon, (knife, check Tueller Drill, by the way, how did you diagnose him as mentally retarded, and not hopped up on something?), approaches you in a manner which leads you to believe you are about to be threatened with deadly physical force, and you choose to employ deadly physical force in sefl defense. BUT, you shoot to wound. What did you just do? You just demonstrated to the jury YOU YOURSELF DID NOT BELIEVE YOU HAD THE RIGHT TO EMPLOY THE LEVEL OF FORCE YOU JUST USED.
You next step is meeting me professionally for the next 10-25 years, because you just lost your court battle. Hope you look good in orange.
 
Actions speak louder than words...

No, dude, you obviously don't get it. You keep saying you do, then recounting the same old tired dribble that has already been disproved by multiple members in this discussion. Actions speak louder than words. You can't say you get it then keep demonstrating that you very clearly do not.

Firearms are considered nearly universally to be lethal force. Most states and most law enforcement agencies require that fear of imminent death or bodily harm must be present and justified in order for firearms to be used. The use of a firearm in and of itself qualifies as lethal force regardless of whether you shoot them in the leg, or the ascending aorta. The difference is that, be you a civilian or a police officer, you will be tried and most likely found guilty of attempted manslaughter and aggravated assault with a deadly weapon if you shoot them in the leg. Why? Because you then used deadly force when it was not warranted. If the attacker could be stopped with a shot to the leg, then means other than lethal force should have been used to resolve the situation. Using a firearm then, escalated the conflict. If you would bother to consult the laws regarding armed self defense and the use of lethal force in your area, you'd likely see the laws intentionally made such that you can not use a firearm unless you are justified, morally and legally, in killing the attacker. I have to say, I kind of agree with this. Firearms are lethal force. Plain and simple. Using a firearm to shoot an attacker in the hand, foot, or chest is all the same from a legal standpoint. It is lethal force. No 'ifs, ands, or buts' about it.

This is why officers are given pepper spray, batons, tasers, sidearms, and typically, long arms stored in the cruiser. Because an officer must be able to react to any situation with a proper application of force without escalating to deadly force unless absolutely necessary. So lets take your situation:

EXAMPLE: You are called to a convenience store where a retarded person has decided to camp. You approach him and see that he`s armed with a knife but also that he`s not all there. He stands and will not drop it. You spray pepper spray, it doesn`t work. You ask over and over and he will not drop it. He approaches you slowly with the knife. Do you shoot him in the chest??? or try to "wound" him by firing at non-vitals?? Thats all I`ve been saying. Every situation is different and NOBODY knows the perfect answer for each.

As an officer, you know that any time someone pulls a knife on you within range to use it, that is lethal force. I would pull my sidearm, advise the man to drop the weapon, and put distance between me and the threat while radioing for backup. I would try keep the man calm and direct civilians out of the area while maintaining enough distance to negate the threat of the knife. All the while, I would have my sidearm drawn. I wouldn't use the taser as there is a distinct possibility that losing control of muscular function could cause the man to stab himself. If I have time to draw and employ pepper spray as I attempt to gain distance, I do. If not, that is fine. My main goal is to keep the man in one spot and far enough away from me to negate the threat of the knife long enough for back up to arrive. If the man continues to approach me with the knife in a threatening manner, makes angles on me, and attempts to close the distance between us, I front sight center double tap and end the situation. Its unfortunate, but he didn't really leave me any options, and at that point, his mental cognition is irrelevant--knives still kill and maim, and quite simply, no one is keeping me from going home that night. I am going to live, and if I exhaust every feasible option to save this guys life while he still threatens me, well, I'd shoot the Pope Himself in that situation. Once backup arrives, he can be surrounded and contained, and we can either wear him out or make an educated decision at the time as to whether to tase him, tackle him, attempt the use of tear gas, bean bags from a shotgun, or something else. The point, is that from both a legal and ethical standpoint, if I use my firearm, it is lethal force and I am justified in killing him. Shooting him in the leg is Hollywood BS. Cops don't get along well in jail. If I shoot him in the leg, that is where I am going. Because the courts are rightfully going to rule that if I could shoot him in the leg to resolve the conflict, means other than a firearm existed that would have resulted in less force being used without escalating to lethal force.

Most rounds penetrate about 4-8" even though they penetrate 12-16" in ballistic gel. That is because ballistic gel simulates soft tissue, and does not account for bone, like ribs, slightly higher density skin, or changes in medium. When a projectile changes through different density mediums it is also slowed more than taken into account in simple equations. Just like a bullet will travel less distance in water fired from above water into water, than if fired under water. The change between mediums deflects and causes a loss of some energy. Well the body has very different internal mediums, some organs are elastic, some are not, some are light and soft, some are hard and dense.
Some people are built very solid. Some are covered in dense muscle, some more in not dense fat.

Hence the reason the FBI minimum is 12 inches, but 14 to 16 is preferred.
 
Zoogster, I just read your post to my B`nLaw and he said that he recognized a few of those examples about the transfer of energy and loss caused by the different mediums. Did you see a film on this? Just curious.
No that is just the way things work in this world. You can find many examples of it. When a projectile goes from one medium to another there is an ineffeciency created.
Waves are effected in similar ways.
Soundwaves are similarly effected transfering between two mediums, a lot of energy is lost transfering. If for example you put a waterproof alarm under water in a pool, and are above water you will hardly hear it if at all. If you put it above water and go below you will also hardly hear it. Yet if you are in either medium the waves will travel to your eardrum much better because they don't transition between different density mediums. If you seperated it by even more mediums it would transfer even worse. Explosive shockwaves are similar, and lose a lot of energy transfer between two mediums. You could set a depth charge off not very far away while above water. Or set the same thing off above water if you were below, while being within lethal range if you were in the same medium.
The human body is a structure with many different mediums, and each time a bullet changes through different mediums energy is used up more than is simply explained by the distance traveled within the mediums.


Hence the reason the FBI minimum is 12 inches, but 14 to 16 is preferred.
Exactly, but many people get so used to qouting the numbers they forget that is in gel and one medium. They erroneously start to believe that is the penetration of the round, rather than the penetration of the round in the test medium. Because the test medium simulates human soft tissue they think it simulates the same depth of penetration, but it doesn't.
The gel tests are a very useful reference point.
Yet not even an absolute reference point, because different diameter rounds, different velocity spreads, and different weight projectiles will actualy penetrate different mediums in different ways. Some rounds for example that penetrate X" of gel will penetrate more or less than other very different rounds in different real targets which also penetrate X" of gel (like some penetrate hard targets better, and some penetrate soft targets better.)
So you cannot simply say because X amount of gel is penetrated Y amount in another medium will be penetrated if when comparing very different types of rounds. So you could not for example declare how much steel can be penetrated because of how much gel is penetrated in a static equation for all rounds.
Most pistol rounds are similar enough though that it does not have to be over thought too much.
People must remember it is only a reference point, not the amount of penetration that will be experienced in actual applications of deadly force.
 
They erroneously start to believe that is the penetration of the round, rather than the penetration of the round in the test medium.
Exactly. Anyone who has done his research will know that skin "maps to" a certain number of inches of gel penetration:
Subsequent investigation revealed that unshored skin where the bullet would normally exit the body offers great resistance to bullet passage. In order to pass through, a bullet must overcome the elasticity of the skin and tear the skin to exit. Researchers found that in order for a bullet to exit skin, it must possess the equivalent momentum required to penetrate approximately four inches of muscle tissue. What this means is, in order for a bullet to pass completely through a human torso that is 11 inches deep, the bullet must be capable of penetrating at least 15 inches or more of soft tissue.

This hold-back effect of the skin has been observed in shootings. One shooting involved a gang member who’d been accidentally shot in the neck by a 9mm 124 grain Federal JHP bullet. The bullet passed through about 5 inches of soft tissue in the victim’s neck, exited near his shoulder and continued on to strike his girlfriend in her back. The expanded bullet was recovered when paramedics began treating the girlfriend, and the bullet simply fell out of the superficial wound and onto the floor. The bullet from this particular cartridge normally penetrates approximately 9 inches of standard gelatin.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs4.htm
 
jhp's all the way

the jhp's are designed to transfer the force of the moving bullet into the intended target, not anything beyond. for this reason most leo, security adn even self defense rounds are hollow points. in a war situation the troops use fmj's because collateral damage is more of the opposing soldiers friends, our percieved enemies. there have been many soldiers shot with fmj 9 mm and they did not know till the battle was over. this is due in main part to the body's chemical response to a life threatening situation, being flood the body with large amounts of adrenaline and endorphines. the bullet went in and out so quickly they didn't realize it. now with a round that expands in the body to possibly double it's size doing more damage to soft tissue and ciculatory tissue the shot person will most probably know it. when in an urban environment, and innocent bystanders are involved in a conflict, then responsibility calls for the jhp round to be used. mainly for more damage done in a shot, and the less potential of overpenetration and then hitting little susie on the merry go round. also the more damage done in a shot ends aggression more quickly. i am not a big student of ballistics and such, but i do understand the use and theory of the hollow point round for self defense. still if using jhp's or fmj's shot placement is key, more importantly is knowing when to use deadly force. this should be the last option that is employed though, as it is ending life more than likely.
 
in a war situation the troops use fmj's because collateral damage is more of the opposing soldiers friends, our percieved enemies.
Actual reasons: international law (some of which we weren't a signatory but chose to honor it), cost.
 
they can't all do it to FBI protocol. JE223 can; he's a hydraulics engineer so he has the professional knowledge to understand how fluids and gels work. He also calibrates his blocks and corrects depths based on calibration.
While JE223's site is a great resource and I appreciate his work, I would also encourage people to read about gel testing standards. His blocks are often (and I'm going off the top of of my head here, I can't give a number on/off) not to spec and that seriously limits the usefulness of the then corrected results.

Is it me or is this link not working?
Lemme' try that again http://ammo.ar15.com/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf
 
You just demonstrated to the jury YOU YOURSELF DID NOT BELIEVE YOU HAD THE RIGHT TO EMPLOY THE LEVEL OF FORCE YOU JUST USED
OR you just demonstrated an act of mercy. Because you knew you could take his life but you chose not to kill him. '
Don`t know any jury that would sentence a police officer for an act of mercy.........Dude,
 
While JE223's site is a great resource and I appreciate his work, I would also encourage people to read about gel testing standards. His blocks are often (and I'm going off the top of of my head here, I can't give a number on/off) not to spec and that seriously limits the usefulness of the then corrected results.
That's why blocks are calibrated. His blocks generally are within spec. The calibration is used so that the results from blocks within the accepted standard deviation may be evenly compared to each other.
OR you just demonstrated an act of mercy. Because you knew you could take his life but you chose not to kill him. '
Don`t know any jury that would sentence a police officer for an act of mercy.........Dude,
Every round you fire has the potential to kill someone; there is no shooting to wound. If you're using a gun a you're employing lethal force, and it had better meet established legal criteria for such use. If you're "showing mercy" that means lethal force isn't justified.
 
You are called to a convenience store where a retarded person has decided to camp. You approach him and see that he`s armed with a knife but also that he`s not all there. He stands and will not drop it. You spray pepper spray, it doesn`t work. You ask over and over and he will not drop it. He approaches you slowly with the knife. Do you shoot him in the chest???
Yes, the cop should shoot him in the chest COM.

The cop is not a psychologist....the cop has no way of knowing if the guy is mentally handicapped, or high on drugs, or suicidal, or just plain out stupid.
It's not the cops job to determine such.

But any guy with a knife IS dangerous.

And you can best believe that the cop intends to go home to his wife at the end of the shift....and if that means shooting a guy with a knife in the chest, so be it!

Here's how they do things over in Gaston County, North Carolina....

http://www.gastongazette.com/news/sult_20242___article.html/officer_boone.html
 
I think this thread's lived its useful life and that we need to move on. Everyone's certainly had the opportunity to express his or her view on the poster's original topic " Why Hollow Points instead of FMJ or Soft Point Ammunition" and not the drift to police tactics and when they should or should not shoot.

I don't see much good coming from this thread remaining open. We're already starting to see the beginnings of personal "wars" that should be taken to PM's if not ignored completely as the best that such usually does is to get threads closed and members banned.



So, "Ashes to ashes"...
 
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