Why aren't semi-auto pistol caliber carbines (PCC) the #1 choice/recommendation for home defence?

Because they’re the same size as a rifle, but their terminal ballistics aren’t quite as good. Would be my guess.

WVGunman said:

Why aren't these things more popular?

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Same reason that they became less popular with military and police over the years. Rifle caliber carbines are the same size, are more effective and have fewer over penetration issues.

Cost in addition to the other reasons mentioned.

Cost cannot be the main factor........the Ruger PCC is comparible in price to a pistol and a Hi point carbine or kel tec is about $199. I have been a fan of PCC's for a long while . I have a 1990 model Marlin Camp 9 and a 1997 model Ruger PC4. Back in the 90's you had to give them away for 200-300 bucks. Today they are scooped up as soon as they arrive at the LGS. If I had a time machine I would go back to the 90's and buy a case of those UZI's and Marlin Camp 45's to sell for thousands

jeff-10 said:

Cost in addition to the other reasons mentioned.

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Indoors ranges are so close that the added accuracy and power don't offset the advantage of a handgun to be used one handed. I like the ability to have one hand free to open doors, turn on lights etc, and still be in control of the gun. Plus it is a lot easier for an intruder to wrestle any long gun away from a homeowner defending himself.

And if I need/want something bigger the versatility of a 16" carbine length AR with a telescoping stock isn't much bigger than a PCC and it shoots a much more potent round. The AR pistols with a telescoping arm brace which can double as a short stock are another option if a long gun is wanted.

And of course shotguns have their place as well. They are even more versatile and the least expensive option. But I still prefer something I can use with one hand indoors. I'd think the PCC's would serve the same outdoor, but close range niche as a shotgun.

WVGunman said:

I mean, they can be had with high-capacity magazines capacities the same as an AR and much more than a shotgun. They can be aimed like a rifle and mount optics, making them far more accurate than an equivalent handgun. They have plenty of power at self-defense range considering their longer barrels give them more punch. They cost less than almost any other gun to buy and feed (pump shotguns are very cheap, but buckshot loads sure aren't). They are easier to suppress if that's desired, and they probably won’t punch a hole clean through your house. You might even be allowed to shoot them at some pistol-only ranges.
These all seem like very significant advantages. Why aren't these things more popular?

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I'm guessing 'home defense' means IN the home..probably in the dark, short ranges, with a light..so a smaller, handgun size(with 15-30r magazine), that ya might have to swing around quickly, would be a better idea, IMHO.

BTW-'buckshot loads'..aren't that expensive. Not 9mm cheap but certainly not expensive..Box of 24 about $18 or so..

WVGunman said:

I mean, they can be had with high-capacity magazines capacities the same as an AR and much more than a shotgun. They can be aimed like a rifle and mount optics, making them far more accurate than an equivalent handgun. They have plenty of power at self-defense range considering their longer barrels give them more punch. They cost less than almost any other gun to buy and feed (pump shotguns are very cheap, but buckshot loads sure aren't). They are easier to suppress if that's desired, and they probably won’t punch a hole clean through your house. You might even be allowed to shoot them at some pistol-only ranges.
These all seem like very significant advantages. Why aren't these things more popular?

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I'd say that PCCs are enjoying a large popularity upswell at the moment. I'd also say that much of that is due to the Ruger PCC being introduced a couple years ago and the spark of interest that gun has caused in "regular" gun owners.

Just look (do a search) at all the threads about PCCs on THR in the last couple of years that I don't recall being so common in years prior.

Sure, many folks are getting those PCCs as centerfire plinkers and not primarily for home defense, but it sure does make people think about the option at hand. Urban and suburban folk ought to see the benefit of having a PCC for whatever purpose they want as they can shoot them at many indoor ranges that rifle cartridges aren't allowed.

Speaking of shooting one handed, my Beretta CX4 is under 30" long with a pistol grip and the balance point being far back enough that I can sure shoot it one handed. That's not my preference and it's not as easy as doing it with a 6" barreled handgun, but it is doable.

Not counting rifle length PCCs, many of the AR PCC guys are shooting pistol ARs with a brace. That's a short little room broom for sure.

That CMMG AR pistol with the radial delayed blowback that people keep mentioning here at THR sure looks very, very interesting.

I think they are very good and on the top of the list, and popular. I don't own one, but I'd like to. My little research on them kind of says they are pretty good at just about everything outside of really long range shooting, but not really great at any one thing. If I could only have one firearm, and that was it - I'd have a 9mm pistol caliber carbine.

WVGunman said:

Regarding ARs: deafeningly loud indoors (even worse with an AR pistol) more expensive to buy and feed, and more likely to overpenetrate.
It's not that PCCs are the greatest thing ever; I recognize that other types of weapons have their advantages. but in this ONE situation: indoors, in an urban environment, PCCs seem to be by far the best choice. Sure, police don't use them as much, but they aren't limited to that one scenario either.

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The bolded has been disproved in testing.....with properly selected ammo. I don't think there's anyone that will debate the effectiveness of a handgun round fired out of a PCC VS .223/5.56. Here's a decent article comparing a .223 & 9mm in a PCC:

https://www.tactical-life.com/exclusives/9mm-vs-223/

I've taken multiple defensive long gun classes, both carbine and shotgun. In 2018 I took a Truama Management class (injured shooters) with a range day spent doing one handed manipulations with pistols and carbines. You can operate, shoot and perform remedial action on a carbine one handed. IMHO the carbine has an advantage here over the shotgun due to weight and lesser recoil. Like anything else though, it's a training/practice issue.

IF you're concerned with overall length, then look at an AR pistol. My .300 AAC with it's 9" barrel is pretty handy and it's about as loud as a 16" .223 and it actually out performs .223/5.56 in short barrels. Also easy to shoot one handed, open doors, use phone etc. It's 110 grain at 2200 FPS is like a 9mm +P+++++++++.



Please don't get me wrong, I own 3 PCCs and I really like them for my intended use: matches, trainers, all out fun plinkers. Buuuuuut, IMHO when defense comes into play the old adage of I want my rifle chambered in a rifle cartridge is true.

Familiarity and perceived usefulness, as one.
If you've used an AR or 99% of your exposure is the movies watching teams clear rooms with them or AKs, and however cool an MP5 looks you can't get it, what would you think?
Especially considering that people newly in the market just aren't aware of them.

Other than that, perhaps actual usefulness.
A good hunter can take deer with a .223, 7.62x39 and probably .300 Blackout are equivalent to .30-30 for deer or use around a farm, and shotguns are good all-purpose guns depending on load--and can get a barrel swapped for a small fraction of a second gun if you want to go that route--and pistols can stay with you all the time.
However much I'd love specific guns for a singular purpose, I for one can't afford it. I don't see myself going hunting any time soon, but I can't justify anything that can't pull that duty unless it's in .22. Even my carry guns have to be cheap enough to feed that I can take them to the range often enough. I just couldn't write off something I can't carry, doesn't shoot flat enough for varmints, doesn't hit hard enough for deer or hogs, would render squirrels and rabbits inedible, and would eat into the ammo budget for practice with things that will cover at least two of those bases.

Plus, nothing confirms "this is my house" to people on both sides quite like racking a twelve-gauge.

That said, objectively and on its own, a 9mm PCC with good 147gr rounds would make a fine defensive weapon.

Some history. There's no denying that the M4 pattern is a more efficacious weapon but the PCC is certainly not lacking in efficacy.

The AR pattern guns had push back as a LEO gun due to their military style appearance and city and state politicians having qualms about the militarization of the police. Police appearing as combat troops were seen esp. as intimidating minority communities and even upscale ones didn't like 'troops' in their neighborhoods like some third world or European authoritarian states.

I have quotes from such politicians about such. Thus, some companies introduced substitute nice weapons. One was the already existing wood stock Mini-14. I recall seeing a turn out of local law charging across a field after an escaped murderer. They all had Minis.

Remington introduced a pump 223 to be politically correct. The cover story was that police were not able to handle the ARs (too complicated) but since they knew 870s, a pump rifle would work. A polite fiction and the gun didn't take off.

Ruger and Beretta went for non AR 9mms.

Then came the Hollywood shootout and the 9mm's were seen as inadequate. One gun magazine had an article about the Ruger as a wonder gun and then had to add, well - it's not a good gun for body armor but you could be more accurate for head and leg shots (oh, well).

However, with 9/11 and other horrors, most accept the LEO need for ARs. They are arguably better than Minis (not that they are bad).

We now have a different situation. We have folks who wanted to shoot cheaper 9mm in competition carbine matches and it became sensible to move those guns into the pistol stages of IDPA.

Also, Ruger's new gun is (without the threaded barrel) is most state friendly as compared to AR patterns. True, you have mag limits - but you would have them with ARs also.

The gun is not that expensive - if you don't go nuts with add-ons. A red dot will suffice.

The 9mm from the gun is a reasonable SD gun. So it's a plinker, competition gun and SD gun.

GEM brought up a great point: In ban states you CANNOT buy an AR15, even AR type rifle like a Colt 9mm.
But you CAN buy a Ruger mini 14 or PCC 9MM. (No supressors, bayonet attachments, high capacity mags or folding stocks )
2 great choices for those states IMO.

Some reasons I can think of;

Evolution - consider how long it has taken for semi-auto pistols to become a mainstream standard accepted by citizens. Polymer strike fired handguns have come to dominate the market and the latest trend is smaller pistols.

Conceal Carry - c.c. is now legal (at least on paper) in all States. With todays fashions and women becoming armed there is big demand for small handguns.

Size - Ask about Open Carry on THR and some members literally foam at the mouth shouting at us that open carry.

Social - While common it Europe police here do not open carry carbines while on foot patrol and when standing guard. A citizen open carrying a carbine will likely create a lot of concern by onlookers.

Political - it is for the children you know. Magazine capacity, type of grips, flash hiders and other parts are evil, full auto weapons being sold over the counter (we of course know they are semi-auto but never let facts get in the way of a big lie), are weapons of war.

Manufacturers - Ruger hit a double with their P.C. They would have a home run if they also added magazine wells for Beretta 92 and S&W M&P.

Cost - P.C.’s are in direct competition with .233 / 5.56.

Performance - 9mm and 45 Auto are designed for use in short barrels.

I think a suppressed PCC is the sweet spot for home defense.

I've been shooting targets at 100 yards with my 9mm carbine. They actually put out 50% more energy than a pistol, so up close at home defense distances, i would choose my Pistol carbine before my 5.56 rifle. (I will get flamed for that statement for sure, but it will do the job and save my hearing indoors, short 16" barell, for tight spaces, and can share mags w/my pistol

WVGunman said:

I mean, they can be had with high-capacity magazines capacities the same as an AR and much more than a shotgun. They can be aimed like a rifle and mount optics, making them far more accurate than an equivalent handgun. They have plenty of power at self-defense range considering their longer barrels give them more punch. They cost less than almost any other gun to buy and feed (pump shotguns are very cheap, but buckshot loads sure aren't). They are easier to suppress if that's desired, and they probably won’t punch a hole clean through your house. You might even be allowed to shoot them at some pistol-only ranges.
These all seem like very significant advantages. Why aren't these things more popular?

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When I was an LEO ,we tested all pistol ,rifle & shotgun loads for in house use as to penetration.

The only load that did NOT penetrate too much in the walls AND through body shots was ----------- the 5.56 x 45 [ aka .223 ] .

In a soft point or hollow point they did what you wanted and did NOT DO what you feared.

I was surprised to see that all pistol rounds overpenetrated both walls and soft tissue.

Due to the extreme speed of the 5.56,it did not over penetrate AND yet did stop a person with body armor.

The noise is THE problem,but in a SHTF moment you will not hear that 'popping' sound [ yea that's all you will hear ].

Ear damage can happen,and does but auditory exclusion will most likely have that round [ or rounds ] sound like no more than a few popping sounds..

I just bought a Ruger PCC and its a real hoot and accurate as hell,there might come a time I would call on it,BUT its a bit heavy and my M-4 is about the same size [ minus a few ounces ].

My 00.02 cent s'all

460Shooter said:

I think a suppressed PCC is the sweet spot for home defense.

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...if you don't choose a suppressed AR pistol or SBR...

FFGCOLORADO said:

I'm guessing 'home defense' means IN the home..probably in the dark, short ranges, with a light..so a smaller, handgun size(with 15-30r magazine), that ya might have to swing around quickly, would be a better idea, IMHO.

BTW-'buckshot loads'..aren't that expensive. Not 9mm cheap but certainly not expensive..Box of 24 about $18 or so..

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RE: "Not 9mm cheap."
(1) 12 ga. std [2-3/4"] puts (9) .33 caliber balls downrange with a single shot. Take your plug out and you have 5 shots to put (45) .33 balls down range...and you Don't have to be on target. Data shows trained police officers at 10-19' miss their target 51% of the time! Me, I'm not a trained tactical officer. I'm a guy with a .12 ga. police riot barrel and (5) 00 buck rounds and a vest right next to it with 20 more rounds. Think about it: my 5 shots (45 balls) requires you to have 2 extra 15-round clips to load. Who has more fire power? Wanna go with the 3" mag? [I have one of those too]...that's (12) .33 caliber balls per trigger pull. And, they certainly won't be going through my neighbor's walls.

David Newton said:

RE: "Not 9mm cheap."
(1) 12 ga. std [2-3/4"] puts (9) .33 caliber balls downrange with a single shot. Take your plug out and you have 5 shots to put (45) .33 balls down range...and you Don't have to be on target. Data shows trained police officers at 10-19' miss their target 51% of the time! Me, I'm not a trained tactical officer. I'm a guy with a .12 ga. police riot barrel and (5) 00 buck rounds and a vest right next to it with 20 more rounds. Think about it: my 5 shots (45 balls) requires you to have 2 extra 15-round clips to load. Who has more fire power? Wanna go with the 3" mag? [I have one of those too]...that's (12) .33 caliber balls per trigger pull. And, they certainly won't be going through my neighbor's walls.

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At 10-19 feet you do have to be on target with a shotgun. The pattern is about an inch at that range.

Deus Machina said:

Plus, nothing confirms "this is my house" to people on both sides quite like racking a twelve-gauge.

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This isn't some movie. The shotgun should already be charged and ready to go. If it's not it's just an expensive club.

WVGunman said:

They cost less than almost any other gun to buy and feed

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As I said on the other thread, a "popularly priced" AR pattern 9mm is not a fully dependable weapon. The dedicated PCC competitor is either a confirmed tinkerer or flush with cash - or both - to stay in the game. The Ruger PC appears to do a better job in its price range.

Jim Watson said:

As I said on the other thread, a "popularly priced" AR pattern 9mm is not a fully dependable weapon. The dedicated PCC competitor is either a confirmed tinkerer or flush with cash - or both - to stay in the game. The Ruger PC appears to do a better job in its price range.

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My buddy has a basic PSA AR pistol in 9mm. He's got over 3K rounds through it without a bobble.

Here is one other issue not yet mentioned; it took a long time for AR-15/M-4 rifles to overcome the "jamming" issues we were raised on from the Vietnam era. Now we know that the AR rifle is a very, very reliable gun in most styles, but for many, many years it was assumed not to be. Just like with the Army, reputation bias and rumor kept a lot of law enforcement gun buyers away from the AR for a long time.

PCC Colt AR's had an even worse rep, as they jammed a LOT compared to the Mp5 and Uzi series of 9mm pistol caliber guns. The all steel angles of the UZI just wasn't all that user-friendly for the average Joe/Jane homeowner, and the Colt AR PCC and Mp5 were very expensive compared to today's PCC's, so those guns weren't even brought up in a HD scenario.

For duty use, until the last 8-10 years or so it seemed like every agency SWAT team deployed Mp5's, while very few had Colt AR 9mm's and fewer yet the UZI. Now even the use of the Mp5 is fading fast, it seems everyone is using the 5.56 M-4 style carbine for all SWAT and patrol type duties. (I personally carried Mp5 and Mp5k's on details for just about 10 years, and for several years before that an Mp5 often rode in the trunk of patrol cars. I LOVE the guns, but recognize their limitations in a firefight situation.) In my own HD situation, I do not foresee the types of engagements that I trained for when working SWAT/SRT, etc.

PC AR's have finally gotten to the point where they're much more reliable than they were, they often have last-round bolt hold open and most use common pistol mags rather than converted UZI or Colt factory mags that cost a lot and were often balky in the AR PCC.

And yes, the rifle-style PCC, beginning with the older Marlin and original Ruger PCC's to today's Ruger PC9/PC40, can be bought in states with the AR ban because they don't look "evil." I fully recommend them for most applications, especially here where the AR is now taboo, since they're accurate, easy to operate and best of all are fun so people like to go shoot or practice with them.

I have almost as much faith in my PC9 with Glock mags loaded with good SD rounds as I do in my BCM 5.56 for a HD situation in the home. (If I was on a farm/ranch or caught outside the home I'd rather have the BCM because it has more reach if needed.) They are a great HD option, and in the hands of a competent and confident home defender are very effective tools!

Stay safe.