Any opinions on the .30 Super Carry cartridge

I will be curious to see if the 30SC last over time, I do know that I can find ammo for it every where I look.

I like all handguns in 32 caliber but had no interest in the 30 Super Carry because of the guns offered. A year ago I bought a slightly used Shield Plus with ammo for $300 simply because I wanted to try it. Don’t regret it but my dream gun would be a steel or aluminum framed gun similar to a Sig P938 or an officer sized 1911.

Have no need to justify or explain any handgun purchase as it is simply my choice. Yet, I do get why so many, overwhelming majority, of gun enthusiasts have no interest in it.

It'll be on the same shelf as the 45GAP soon enough.

I am overwhelmed. Where is one of those threads about how good a .32 revolver is?

.32 SC is in the ballistic ballpark of the .30 Luger which was quite popular until the German navy got involved.

tarosean said:

Errr.. You have never owned one and are expounding the 365s virtues countless times?
Is that correct?

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@TTv2

That is correct because I have shot 2 of them. Both the original 3.1" version. Unfortunately I haven't been able to try the XL which is a shame. Also its not very difficult to read a spec sheet, or do research on how reliable a certain firearm has been. Or learn of the benefits of one firearm vs the other. Its funny that you think owning one makes any difference when in reality it DOESN'T.

Because I have handled and shot the firearm, researched long-term durability with literally thousands of owners, and I know exactly what it is, what size it is, what it can do, and what its made for - I have the same exact information right now as I would have if I owned one. Well except one thing - how well it fits me how it feels to be carried in a concealed IWB holster. Obviously I don't own a holster for a gun I don't own so I have been unable to experience that part.

"Thats BS. Theres no way you know that much about a firearm you don't own". Oh really, then explain to me why I shoot just as well with the P365 and have as much knowledge about the P365 - As my OWN Walther PDP 4" Compact that I have been carrying for about 2 years now. Before this I had a PPQ SC LE and that was my first ever carry beginning in 2013. I don't know anything more about the PPQ than I do the P365 either - except how it feels to carry because again - I obviously do not own an IWB holster for a gun I do not own.

You guys are fools if you believe that you must own something to know something. That is far from the case, especially when you can try it out yourself. Ive put about 500 rounds through P365s myself without ever owning one. Hmmmm... Think about it real hard now... Come on... I know you can do it... Its called RENTAL OR BORROW. I did both - one example I was able to try belonged to a buddy of mine and she didn't care how much I shot it at the range. The other was a rental - and boy was that rental beat up lol, talk about the most requested rental they have ever had - the employees told me as such.

The original P365 from 2018 had a couple issues at first but thanks to how popular it was, Sig helped every customer they could. This is what got people saying "Sig does beta tests on their customers" because it was clear the very first batch were not properly tested.

Definitely a bummer, but it remained the most popular so the issues got fixed and then you had the world's first 9mm handgun that was the size of a traditional single-stack micro but had much more capacity - made by a reputable company and is very durable, reliable, and accurate. Is it really that difficult for you to understand why it became so popular?

Once the issues were fixed and its popularity exploded, people started releasing a bunch of aftermarket parts for the platform and then Sig even released their own custom works studio where you can build your very own fully custom P365 or XL. This happened because the serialized part on a P365 is the trigger group itself, so you can literally swap out the entire lower frame, slide, barrel, recoil system, about 90% of the entire firearm to suit your desires.

So now you have a firearm that is not only as small as a Glock 43 with 50% more capacity, but also now that firearm has about the same amount of aftermarket support as Glock. But the actual firearm can actually be modified MORE than a Glock because the serialized part on a Glock is quite literally the entire lower frame.

Customizing the P365 has become so overwhelmingly popular that Sig now offers about 30 different P365 models right from the factory - from popular custom works builds to compensated versions to gold barrel versions to custom machined slide versions.

As an example, here is a version of the P365-XL called the "Spectre" now offered by Sig directly from the factory. It includes a gold-finished, slightly upgraded trigger, a gold finish barrel, a custom laser-engraved grip module, and a custom Spectre slide with cuts. Also available with black finish trigger and barrel combined with "distressed" finish slide. There us also a "Spectre Comp" Compensated version also offered in both colors - direct from Sig themselves. And thats just ONE model of P365-XL. The only bummer is the cost of such custom models. The P365-XL-Spectre MSRP is $1099.99.





Again, USE YOUR BRAIN and actually do some critical thinking - How is it that such a thing becomes so popular... Hmmmm... Toughy, that one...

Go ahead, try it for yourself, go rent one at your local indoor rage. Almost guaranteed to have one at at least one local range within your nearest large city. Also go to Sigs website and try designing your very own custom P365:

Wow, I had to use the ignore option for the first time in a long time...........

30SC is neat but not something I see in my future. Nor, a SIG 365.

Kleanbore said:

I looked into a P365 when they came out, but it did not end up on my short list--or even on the long list.

There are a number of reasons for that, but that is not the topic here.

I am not currently planning to buy a .30 SC, but every now and then a new review, another real world shooting incident, or something else comes up to keep it in the back of my mind. Goose Gestapo's post was worth noting.

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Sorry about that, I wasn't even trying to be off topic. The conversation started with how I thought 30-SC didn't bring enough benefits to warrant switching from 9mm.

Then someone clearly unaware of modern technology began arguing that you can't get super small, narrow, micro-compact 9mm handguns with good capacity. Well thats exactly why I proved him wrong with 1.5 stack technology.

The P365 was used as an example to prove him wrong because its literally does what he thought wasn't possible - same size as a Ruger LC-9 but with 50% more capacity. And because it does that and was the first to do it and is extremely modular with only the trigger group being serialized - quickly became the best selling handgun for concealed carry use in the United States.

To me, with technology like 1.5-stack available, I see very minimal benefit in switching to 30-SC, even IF the ammunition was the same cost. And since the ammunition is so much more expensive, 30-SC isn't even a consideration for me at this point.

The real funny part was them trying to argue that because I don't personally own a P365 that I had no room to make any statements or that any statement I made could be dismissed, even though I have shot 500 rounds through one - meanwhile I highly doubt either one of them have ever even shot 30-SC and they most certainly do not own one. And so, by that logic - they are invalidating their OWN argument LOL

Kleanbore said:

No problem at all. But my discssing why I do not like the P365 would be too far afield.


There is a lot more to handgun selection than size and capacity.

And for the kinds I prefer, there is an advantage.

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Agreed, I never said the round was completely useless. I even said its quite interesting.

Its just that the problems people had with 9mm for concealed carry have been addressed.

Size and capacity are certainly not the only things that are important. I agreed with you on that, but they are two of the MOST important aspects of a concealed carry handgun.

Why don't a lot of people like carrying micro single stack 9mm's? Because not enough capacity, why don't people like carrying more traditional double-stack compacts? Still overall too large, heavy, and prints too much.

What 1.5 stack did is solve BOTH of those problems we had with 9mm simultaneously.

And of course I can completely understand if you don't like a P365. Again I use it as an example STRICTLY because it is the most popular. You may like an alternative like a Springfield Hellcat or Hellcat Pro - which literally took Sig's 1.5 stack design and copied it. Nowadays there are options in 1.5 stack from almost every major company. S&W has the Shield Plus series, and more recently FN released their "Reflex" 1.5 stack 9mm handgun.

So, between how many size formats are available, how much capacity you can get in a tiny form factor, how modular some options are, and how its literally the most popular handgun cartridge in the entire WORLD, not just the USA - I can pretty much GUARANTEE you there is a 9mm option out there that suits ALL of your needs and concerns.

And thats my overall point - if you can literally solve 99% of all concerns for size, weight, and use case, then why do we need a new cartridge thats less powerful than 9mm? Will a 30-SC carry option offer any major benefits over a modern 9mm 1.5 stack, bearing in mind the step down in power from 9mm to 30-SC? Unfortunately, not really.

One guy tried to argue that he would use 30-SC as a way to make an even more narrow single stack carry option. On the one hand he has a point because the smaller cartridge can certainly make a more narrow gun. On the other hand that point means nothing because a barrel and slide need a certain amount of width to even be reliable and not just break into pieces. Additionally, any adult who has shot a P365 or any other 1.5 stack 9mm Will tell you that the grips are so small that men actually have a hard time getting a grip with enough authority.

And you want to argue that a handgun should be even narrower than that, right... I guess if you had the hands of an 8-year-old it would make sense.

So considering All of that, the one REAL, BIG advantage of 30-SC would be to have a traditional double stack like a Glock 19 but of course in 30-SC and the width of that handgun would probably be a lot closer in size to a 1.5 stack like the P365 and others.

That's pretty much where the real benefit comes into play. And let's be honest, that's actually a pretty big benefit. But are you seriously going to consider ditching the world's most popular round as your CCW when there are so many different models that solve so many different issues, JUST because 30-SC has a SINGLE notable advantage?

And this is why both me and Paul Harrell explain things in a very large format because inevitably just like this conversation here - people always seem to forget the bigger picture and focus on the wrong things like that I'm trying to suggest the P365 specifically when no; I don't give a damn if you choose a P365 or not.

But what you SHOULD consider - if you are looking for a VERY compact, VERY concealable handgun that also has good capacity - Then consider a 9mm handgun with the same 1.5 stack design that Sig invented with the P365. That means any gun from any manufacturer that has a size comparable to a single stack 9 mm but has a magazine capacity closer to that of a double stack Sub-Compact. People took that statement and twisted it all around as if I was trying to push some sort of personal agenda because apparently that's just how stupid people are these days.

Kleanbore said:

Every handgun is a compromise. I compromised capacity to optimize other things. The Avivity Arms PD 10 meets almost all of my requirements and adds more capacity, but it was not available.


If we could do that without creating more problems, that would be great. It hasn't been done.

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Not sure what you mean because the 1.5 stack literally isn't a compromise. People wanted BOTH more capacity AND the size of a single-stack micro 9mm. Sig pulled it off with the 1.5 stack. If your goals are tiny concealable gun with good capacity, then these 1.5 stack handguns have no compromise at all, they literally do everything you wanted it to do. Well I guess not including recoil. Recoil always sucks in tiny guns, but you do expect that tradeoff and accept it.

Kleanbore said:

Not for me. I think there is a practical upper limit for capacity for a civilian whio is not duty bound to pursue a perp after a use of force encounter. As they saying goes, one can run out of time before running out of ammo.
That popularity is good and bad--more availability sometimes, and a lot less in other times--and it is good for nothing else.

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I never said a civilian should pursue a perp. People want more capacity Because they are scared with all the mass shootings lately that they won't have enough. That things are more likely to go so wrong that you need to down multiple perps or deal with an extended gun fight. And to be honest - they aren't wrong. These days, you NEED to be able to deal with more than one perp if you want to be safe.

Also, that kind of eliminates any reason for 30-SC. The whole reason for it is more capacity. Thats the only reason 30-SC was even invented. The recoil vs 9mm is basically the same and yet its slightly less powerful - so theres no other reason for it.

Take a look at the Kansas City Chiefs Super Bowl Victory Celebration Parade Shooting that just happened last week. There's limited information at this time but from what information is available, it seems there were 3 shooters. If you want ANY chance of defending yourself in this situation, you need a BARE MINIMUM of 10 rounds and you would have to be quite good with it to stop all 3 of them without a reload.

This is why the average carry setup right now is a 1.5 stack 9mm firearm with an average capacity of 12 rounds and most who have actually been trained and have a CCW license also carry a spare magazine for a total of 24 rounds of 9mm hollow-point stopping power on average.

Kleanbore said:

I am thinking about it.

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I mean more power to you if you really feel like those extra 2 rounds will make up for the drop in power and massive drop in affordability to practice.

Kleanbore said:

Buyers have to decide upon height, length, thickness, weight, grip shape and angle, trigger all, slide racking effort, capacity, terminal ballistics, recoil, reliability, safety characteristics, price, and ammunition availability. That involves compromises.

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Agreed, I was saying in that specific "class" of firearm, the 1.5 stack offers both without compromise - but of course compared to entirely other classes, there are of course compromises

Kleanbore said:

Who might those people be? Mass shootings are very, very, very rare.

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Kleanbore said:

Well, yeah, statisically, one is at least as likely to have to deal with two or three perps as with one.

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Most people these days. Mass shootings may be rare in the sense that some random guy intentionally kills a bunch of people for no reason whatsoever, but mass shootings defined as 3 or more innocent people shot for any reason - are now so commonplace that you are just as likely to encounter one as you are to encounter some dude and his buddy coming to try and kill you.

But regardless its doesn't really matter because a mass shooter is usually one person. But you want to be prepared for any of those scenarios and so capacity becomes a very important factor.

Kleanbore said:

We have discused capacity considerations at great length. Search "multiple attackers" and look for JohnKSa's analysis.

Yes, we keep coming back to that.

Power is what leads to penetration, and the .30 SC is close to the 9 in that measure.

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Ya, we came back to capacity again because you argued that a civilian shouldn't pursue a perp and therefore there is an upper limit for a civilians conceal carry capacity. But the whole point of 30-SC is more capacity so you are making your own argument sound completely pointless.

Also, with things that have happened lately, I would say there is no longer ANY upper limit of capacity for civilians in any way. Again, go look at the Kansas City Super Bow Parade Shooting last week.

At this point things are so bad in this country with all the violence that if I could magically shrink a 30-round AR into my pocket with a spare mag for a capacity of 60 rounds and still be completely concealed and unassuming, then I would advise that method for anyone.

Ya, 30-SC has close to the same penetration as 9mm and thats definitely good, so is the fact its fast enough to expand reliably with hollow points - excellent.

But 9mm is still larger, and heavier, and expands more than 30-SC. The stopping power of 5 30-SC rounds is equivalent to about 4 rounds of 9mm.

Again, not saying thats bad, 30-SC is strong enough to work well. But capacity issues are resolved with 9mm in very tiny packages, so why do I need those 2 extra rounds from 30-SC when the overall stopping power of a magazine only equals that of my 9mm, doesn't even exceed it?

You see what I mean? 30-SC is a cool round, an interesting round. But as a CCW option the benefits over 9mm are just so minimal. There is definitely a small improvement and Ill admit that, but the 30-SC just isn't anything more than a tiny baby step in the right direction.

I would rather wait for an even better cartridge to come one day than give up the worlds most popular and well-trusted cartridge in exchange for a miniscule improvement that will most likely never affect me in any way, shape, or form.

Also one thing is absolutely for certain - 30-SC is definitely completely useless in some states because of the 10-round magazine limit. In those states, you shouldn't even be considering 30-SC. We have had 10 or more round capacities in 9mm micros with the width of a single stack for over half a decade now - thats exactly what 1.5 stacks are.

Kleanbore said:

That would not influence the number of rounds needed--at all.

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Correct, doesn't matter in that case, however that was just an example, it doesn't change the fact that you have to prepare as best as you can for any given scenario.

Kleanbore said:

No. There is a practical upper limit to useful capacity for the civilian defender. He will likley run out of time before he runs out of ammo.

No. That's absurd. Have you studied JohnKSa'a analysis.? Do you understand how six rounds can be so much better than five? How eight can be so much better than six, and so on? Do you see the diminishing returns?

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Yes I have. And of course I agree with it to a certain extent. But there are always variables you simply cannot account for such as stress during a potentially lethal encounter. Plenty of people's aim are way off in a defensive situation no matter how much they trained because there is no perfect substitute for the real thing.

Once again, the irony here is strange. You argue that there is no reason for a civilian to carry ammunition beyond a certain amount, yet advocate for a cartridge that was specifically designed to give you more capacity. That just doesn't make any sense.

Kleanbore said:

Is that a scientific conclusion? What is "stopping power"?

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Simple - its mathematics. Now its not the biggest concern, or the biggest difference, but it IS a difference. Basically we are talking about bullet energy and for simplicity we use muzzle energy as the example.

Kleanbore said:

You may not. It would depend entorely upon how things unfold in the event.

The "overall stopping power of a magazine" is a completely meaningless measure of merit.

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Exactly, it DEPENDS on how a situation unfolds. You can't accurately predict what will happen to you. So the general consensus is - get the largest weapon with the highest capacity you can that fits your needs and that you carry comfortably. Its really that simple.

You may think overall stopping power of a magazine is useless but it actually isn't. It is NOT the biggest thing, but its still useful information. Because 9mm is larger, heavier, and expands more - it does more damage. Ok fair enough - so a guy high on meth trying to stab you with a knife may take 4 rounds of 9mm to incapacitate, and may take a 5th round to incapacitate from a 30-SC.

Its just something to keep in mind. Again I have no doubt that 30-SC is a perfectly capable carry cartridge, but overall its no better than 9mm, or at least not enough to make a meaningful difference.

But hey, you do you. Im pretty bored of this conversation at this point to be quite honest with you.

Reading this thread has me thinking I really want to buy a P365 in .30 Super someday...

TTv2 said:

Reading this thread has me thinking I really want to buy a P365 in .30 Super someday...

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I think the 1.5 stack design really works best with 9mm due to its larger size.

I wonder who would do it first this time as well, or is there maybe a 1.5 stack 30-SC already? Actually, there is, and you might like it a lot.

One interesting option I have seen in 30-SC is the S&W Shield Plus 30-SC Version.

If you think you would be interested in a 30-SC version of a P365, this is pretty much the exact same thing. 3.1 inch barrel just like the original P365, 1.5 stack, 1.1" width, 13-round flush magazine or 16-round extended.

Thats actually a fair bit better capacity than the original P365 which was 10 or 12 round. The closest competitor would be the Hellcat because Springfield famously took Sig's already extremely efficient design and took it to its absolute limits, with 11-round flush mag and 13 extended while being the exact same size as the original P365.

Check it out, you may come to want one of these S&W shields: https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/s-w-shield-plus-or-30-super-carry

This discussion is illustrative of the problem amongst some people anytime a new cartridge is introduced... and the tendency has greatly increased with the internet.

1. Cranky old bastards - of any age - reject anything that interferes with a scared cow. There's nothing to respond to that with..

2. Naysayers will say it does nothing an existing cartridge doesn't already do. OK, well that's true of like 95% of all cartridges. If you want to live Soviet-style, we can have a committee of major domestic ammunition manufacturers (all four of them) decide on 3 each of CF pistol and rifle cartridges, and 22 LR, and be done with it. Everything else is superfluous and banned, maybe your favorite. How's that sound?

Not the point is it? There is everything right with innovation, re-introduction, diversity and freedom in cartridges. That's the entire point of a free society.

Don't care for a cartridge, don't use it. Pretty simple. Called freedom. But then again, haters gotta hate.

PS. I've got enough .45 GAP ammo and components to last several lifetimes. Great cartridge and firearm for the open-minded!

MechaDragon said:

Go ahead, try it for yourself, go rent one at your local indoor rage. Almost guaranteed to have one at at least one local range within your nearest large city. Also go to Sigs website and try designing your very own custom P365:

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i don’t need to go rent one. I own one.

Boom Vang said:

PS. I've got enough .45 GAP ammo and components to last several lifetimes. Great cartridge and firearm for the open-minded!

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so your the one keeping it a float.

Generally speaking, the smaller the diameter of the bullet the less mass it will have, and thus it will rely more on velocity to produce energy. In other words, shorter barrels (like a Shield) favore heavier bullets to make up for the loss in velocity. Most of the ammo is rated with 4 inch barrels, so you're not going to maximize the round's potential with a Shield. Combined with the price of the ammo, I really think the round does not have much of a future.

I had a Shield Plus in .30SC and it shot well, found some ammo online that wasn't too unreasonable (about $15/box 50). Recoil was very similar to 9mm, maybe just a hair less but nothing major. I think the idea is sound, it's a modern day high velocity .32 (well, .312") and there are some gel tests out there that seem to indicate that it performs adequate. The problem is that the 9mm is so prolific that anything at all that comes out new and tries to compete against the 9mm will simply not make it unless there is a dedicated push from gun makers to see it survive, and we're not seeing that.

It's advantage is capacity, I'd like to see a 20+1rd G19 sized .30 Super Carry. I don't think it will ever happen, but I think it would stand the best chance of getting the .30 SC off it's feet. A police agency or two adopting it would help wonders too, but again, without guns that will never happen. I have a feeling it would do well in terms of barrier penetration too. I can never understand why people seem to want it do die off before it has a chance to live, as if its very existence is causing them to lose sleep at night. It's another option, and options are good to have.

Sorry, I skipped a lot of stuff so I may have missed something good...

Personally, I think Federal targeted the wrong cartridge - they should have made the 30SC a 1,050 - to 1,200 fps effort instead of making a low-end 9mm.

Even so, I'm tempted by the 30SC in the Shield EZ. At $280 the pistol sounds like a good deal, I think, though I had to go look at a Shield EZ, never having held or owned one previously. Felt good, and if I kept my thumb anywhere near where it should be the grip safety worked as it should. Federal 30SC Punch sells for $0.80 per round, and I paid that for 9mm HST last time I bought it, a long time ago. The Punch ammo at 103 grains and 1,150 fps falls close enough into the "replace a .380" band for me. (In fact I found the SC by accident, looking for an easy-to-rack 380.) When I think how good it could be replacing the 380 in a P365, it just hurts a little.

Already obsolete? Who cares, it's $280, not $2,800, and it might not be obsolete already. I bought my daughter a Ruger 101 32H&R long ago and still have 400 rounds of it remaining. I just bought a box or so along the way whenever I saw it.