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A soldiers take on the m4

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Roboshred

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I was blasting away at some bowling pins early yesterday morning when I was approached by a soldier at the range(he wasn't in uniform). He looked over my guns and I offered to let him shoot my Maadi(Ak derivative). He pounded some steel plates at about 150 yds with open sights pretty regularly and commented that although he had just gotten back from Iraq that he had carried an AK on a regular basis while he was there. He said his rifle continuely choked on the ever present sand and his c/o told them they could keep some AK's in their vehicle as backup. His comments were that he loved his M4 but the action had difficulties with the sand. NO big deal but this seems to be a reoccuring theme there. I let him finish off a couple mags from my 1911 and thanked him for his service. If the issue with the sand proves out during this war, the m-16 and it's variants need to go away. Our soldiers need a firearm that works without fail. Just my .02;)
 
Failure of the M16 rifle in sandy/dusty conditions was predicted long ago, by yours truly among others. It was one of two features I brought up to Gene Stoner as potential problems (the other was venting exhaust gas through the bolt carrier). He was not amused.

Many defenders of the rifle contend that it is reliable, given proper care and cleaning, but then concede that "proper" means almost 24x7 when in that kind of environment. In other words, when not shooting it, be cleaning it.

The AK-47 is not immune to dust and sand, and Russian troops had complaints in Afghanistan, but it is more tolerant of sand than the M16/M4. The Army defends the M16, but then really has no choice; no one likes to admit that they just might have made a boo-boo. There has been a lot of talk here and on other sites about other rifles that should be issued, ranging from .50 MGs for everyone* to old M1 rifles, M14's, Galil's, FAL's, etc. Some of these might be better, although the vaunted FAL gave up quickly when the Israelis used it in the 6-day war.

*Apparently by some kid who never saw a .50, let alone tried to carry one.

Jim
 
see though, a big problem with getting rid of those would be teh fact that they're predicting more urban combat. Which the M-4s would be perfect for. There'll be different weapons better suited to different situations. There really isn't a way around that, and you knowthey're not going to pony up the cash to make different rifles availiable for different situations.
 
I've heard that one before, too. The story is that there wer a couple of units that were authorized by someone to carry AK's to supplement their issue weapons. Depending on what story you read, the reason was either lack of M16's and/or 5.56mm ammo or the hideous unreliability of the M16.

I haven't found out for sure if it is true or not. I was over there, too, and I saw the M16 and M4 work very well under some very bad conditions.

Everyone who could fiddled with captured AK's, but no one who I ran across carried an AK.

So maybe it happened and maybe it didn't. Personally I would take stories like these with a grain of salt.

ANM
 
I've got some sand in them without much trouble. You can't go leaving the thing laying aroudn though. I saw people that had problems but I never thought they were that bad.

Keeping the ejection port cover closed was a big thing. And brass to the grass in the mags was big..

I don't know though, the M-16 A2s seemed to have more problems than the M-4s

MY $.02
 
Jessica Lynch said her M16 jammed before she could even fire a shot. The rumers must be true.:)

I served with 2/4 and 3/7 Cav out of Ft. Stewert. We were always encouraged to carry our M16A2 in plastic garbage bags while in the field or in the desert. What's even more humerous is that the Army actually has a special 'bag' that's designed for this. Our unit never stocked these but the Infantry did.

I don't know that the AK would be the anwer here either. Our M16's could consistantly drop the 300M(330yd) targets on the range. I've done several 30-round strings myself when trying to use up the ammunition we didn't want the hassle of turning back in. Are AK's capable of this accuracy? I've never been around them myself. I know my SKS would have some severe difficulty.
 
the IDF tested the Russian AK out very well in sand...the sand gets in the gas tube vent holes and chews the gas rod all to hell..yes they work in sand but after a point they dont and a cleaning wont fix that problem..hence no gas holes in the AK-74...the M-2 .50 wont even run well in that stuff. The Galil has a AK rod with no gas holes in the tube and the brit FAL type sand cuts. The so called perfect Mp-5 wont even work in that stuff. The IDF finally decided that the M-16 was OK if it got cleaned 10 times a day as the sand did not destroy the guns.
 
The French (yeah, I know, I know......) had quite a lot of experience with the desert prior to the first Gulf War- I believe in their colonies in Algiers and Morocco.

They developed a plastic carry bag for their FAMAS rifles, too.

ANM
 
I served with 2/4 and 3/7 Cav out of Ft. Stewart. We were always encouraged to carry our M16A2 in plastic garbage bags while in the field or in the desert. What's even more humerous is that the Army actually has a special 'bag' that's designed for this. Our unit never stocked these but the Infantry did.
Click to expand...

The Army issued plastic bags to troops before the Normandy invasions for the Garands and M1 Carbines. They are even sold as collector items on eBay.

I don't have access to the testing of the M16, but the testing of the M1 Garand is documented in detail in "Hatcher's Book of the Garand" by General Julian Hatcher. Sand doubled or quadrupled the number of malfunctions. The Garand proved itself in combat in WWII and Korea., but at the time, there was significant play in the press on these problems and the wisdom of fielding a semi auto service rifle.

The USMC officially selected the M1903 Springfield in December 1940, citing problems with reliability with semiautos. None of the rifles tested functioned after a "mud bath." After wetting and dragging through wet beach sand several times, the M1903 was able to function "with difficulty", the Garand managed three shots and could not be operated even manually without dissasembly for cleaning. The rifles functioned surprisingly well after fresh water and salt water soakings or showers, and without lubrication.

So, even for a rifle with the legendary reliability of the Garand, sand is a big problem. That it might be less of a problem for AKM's is only one consideration and largely moot.


Garryowen
 
The M16 should have gone away during Vietnam. The gun just plain sucks.
It jams if it's the least bit dirty and when it's clean, it lacks the power to do the job. I carried one for about 4 weeks in Nam and was lucky to live thru it. Thankfully, being a LRRP, I was able to carry a variety of weapons once the CO got over the AR15 kick and realized this gun would get his LRRP's killed. Say what you want, I'll take my M14, ans AK or even an SKS over an M16 anyday of the week. I've been there and done that.
 
In over 15 years of service I have yet to have a failure to function with the M16 series. Takes some effort but so far a near perfect record (broken trigger spring once). I will add that the Israeli's went to the Mauser rifles during the six day war and they had a sizable stock of AKs as well. Everything they had, to include the Mausers, had problems in the desert. The bolt action rifles had chambering problems and bolt lift was sometimes hard but they had the fewest problems.

I will admit that I have been lucky but that luck came with a lot of effort on my part.

Some AKs were (and probably still are) in use in Iraq. There was an article in the Army Times a while back about it. Many units deployed over there do not have enough M-16 or M-4 for all their soldiers. Armor units especially have this problem, the personal weapon in armor units is usually the M9 9mm. As I understand it tankers have only one long gun per tank, that leaves three of them with only the M9.
 
My uncle, a Korean War vet, told me that his Garand worked every time as long as he kept it clear of sand.

Sand is pretty much the worst thing for any weapon.
 
When I was in Vietnam there were always those that did not take care of their weapons. They were the few, but they were the ones that had problems, too. Some did not appear to understand how things worked and others just could not be bothered.

I was a Navy Corpsman and saw the results of those problems. So I wore out my weapons taking them apart and cleaning them.

I get the feeling that some of the Reserve Forces pressed into action have very differing skills with thier weapons. One jam at the wrong time is a tragedy. I hope these problems result in a complete solution which given the military's track record is an impossible dream.
 
Funny, My Uncle, a U.S. Marine who did 3 tours in Vietnam, has nothing bad to say about the M16 or it's "ineffectiveness". Also, my Father's very good friend and morning coffee buddy who was a Medic in Vietnam has great respect for the wounding potential of the 5.56 round. While we were on the subject one morning, he told us a story of an entry wound at the clavicle that exited the top of the head....

FWIW, both have very similar and lasting emotional and nervous conditions from their time some 30+ years ago...

Of course, this has NOTHING to do with sand whatsoever, but back on the subject... the weapons weren't the only things that had trouble in the land of eternal sand... The vehicles, cameras, pretty much anything and everything had a hard time in an environment where sand is in the air and all around everywhere...
 
Why does no one suggest we replace the M249 with the RPD, the M60 with the PKM or the M2 with the DShK?

The '249, the '60 and the Ma Deuce all had problems in the sandbox too, didn't they? Or did people only selectively read the after action reports?

Any gun can fail. Anyone who thinks otherwise is welcome to bring their grunt-proof wundergun over ... I'll find a way to make it stop. And if you issue it, the Infantry will find another few dozen ways.
 
Actually, not a bad idea. I suggest an FN-MAG would be cool too.
Click to expand...
Good point. I'd agree heartily on the FN-MAG, but don't know enough about the PKM.
 
The M60 is being replaced in most units by the FN-MAG 58. In it's USGI guise it's known as the M240 B model in the USMC and G model in the Army.

The M60 is probably the worst GPMG design ever to be fielded by a major power, yet for some reason it doesn't generate the hate and discontent among the GSC crowd that the M16 always has.

I've always found it interesting that you don't find many M16 haters who have extensive experience with it. And when those with experience speak up they are usually dismissed out of hand in favor of unverifiable rumors in gun magazines and posted on the internet.

The desert is hard on anything that has moving parts. Weapons, vehicles, ancillary equipment. But we can overlook the problems that environment causes with all machinery except when it gives us a chance to kick around the M16 some more. :confused:

Jeff
 
I look at it this way I live in the northeast rain,snow cold,hot never bothered my bushie AR.Ive gone 1500 rounds in rain with no failures,I dont expect that my rifle will ever see a desert but if it did frequent cleaning should solve the problem.In WW2 garands not kept up failed in the north african desert.In korea my father found out the hard way that going from cold to warm causes condensation on the metal of a rifle and if not wiped down before going back in cold the rifle seizes and then he had to piss on it to get it to work..Bottom line knowledge and skill is power.If you understand your rifles stregnths and weaknesses and its design and how to maintain it in different environments it will function.No firearm is perfect and any rifle can fail if not maintained.There is no perfect low maintence weapon that is crap proof and until laser rifles or some other power or ammo source other than a gun powder based round is found lets all reconsile ourselves to the fact that a clean weapon is a properly functioning and reliable one.:D
 
There was a Reuter's story about US troops carrying the AK.. had nothing to dowith the m-4/m-16 being ineffective, had everything to do with troops who were NOT issued rifles suddenly being pushed into action that required the use of rifles. IE tankers doing riot control, cooks facing ambush, etc.

There is apparently a shortage of M-16's, given a geurilla war situation and a heavily armed populace/enemy.
 
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