Almost had a "thugging" last night :-(

[twoblink]

So I'm on the scooter with the wife, and down rolls the window of a taxi, and out pops a bunch of trash.

I point at the guy, and yell out "Hey! Where do you get off just littering?"

Of course, some greasy faced 6-foot fat bald man in a wife-beater t-shirt starts yelling and spraying spit.

"What is your problem?" he yells at me.
"You littering is the problem" I replied
"What, you think it's illegal or something? I can litter if I want!"
"Well, it __IS__ illegal, and I'm so glad that you act like a model citizen and throw trash everywhere."

The guy then gets out of the taxi, and gets in my face..
"What are you going to do about it little @($&!(*%!(&@!(* "??

I'm a passivist in the Oleg Volk sense, (you get in my face and threaten my life and those of my loved ones, and I will passify you all the way to the autopsy table)... So with knife in one hand, and my bike lock in the other... all the while, thinking "I've got two weapons in my hands, and I'm wearing a helmet..advantage twoblink.."

Now, I get warnings from my wife all the time "Don't make waves", but at the same time, I am thinking, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

He got in my face, and if I were me by myself, I would have been ok. But with the wife there, it was the first time I felt (I don't even know how to describe the feeling), I didn't worry about dying, or getting injured, but I did worry about her safety. Being married less than a month, I have to say, my perspective has changed quite a bit.

I, for the first time, am having an internal conflict. Do I stand ideally by, and watch as value systems after value systems go down the tube, where might makes right, and evil men are free to do wrong under the banner of thuggary, or do I do what I know is right?

"Pick your fights" is what a lot have told me, but the problem is, I'm not picking a fight.

What if I got hurt or injured? What, over some trash that is thrown? But at the same time, where do I draw the line? Do evil men have free rein because good men do a cost/benefit analysis before any actions?

I am conflicted about self-defense, and defending what is right, while balancing the responsibilities of a husband and perhaps later on, that of a father.


I'd love to hear the forum's comments, on this.



The ending to the story is.. The light turned green, and we rode off.. The guy however, now having "lost face" (which is more serious in an Asian culture than death) had the taxi driver try to chase us down.. He jumped out of the taxi at the next red light, and tried to chase us on foot... We being on a bike, just took off..

 

[Oleg Volk]

I think your wife is right. Don't pick avoidable fights. If you must, fight by calling friends with 155s. You married a smart woman, twoblink. Listen to her before starting fights, not just during them.

 

[DelayedReaction]

You shouldn't have escalated. The person wasn't evil, or some force to fight in the name of righteousness. He's a jackass who throws trash out the window.

Your responsibility is to the safety of your wife and yourself first. Pride recovers far faster than the body does.

 

[twoblink]

I have to admit, my thinking has changed dramatically.

Grr..

And sometimes, I just mutter to myself "how many bodies can I fit in the cooler again?"

 

[psyopspec]

What if I got hurt or injured? What, over some trash that is thrown? But at the same time, where do I draw the line? Do evil men have free rein because good men do a cost/benefit analysis before any actions?

To frame your question in a new light, take it to the gravest extreme: Would you rather do you what you feel is right, risking death and being unable to protect your wife for the remainder of her life, or would you rather choose your fights more carefully, risking your life only in cases where doing so would result in her being able to go on living?

Or, just fight in a less confrontational way. What if you had done this: Call the cops, report the license and cab number, and let them deal with it. Will anything come of it? Probably not. But then again, playing Captain Planet didn't make the jerk pick up after himself either.

Regardless of the conclusion you arrive at, that you comtemplate things like this speaks volumes of your character. Many simple-minded folk tend to be more confrontational in front of the female species in an infantile effort to prove how macho they are. Good on ya for keeping her interests in the foreground with your own.

 

[TrybalRage]

You shouldn't have escalated. The person wasn't evil, or some force to fight in the name of righteousness. He's a jackass who throws trash out the window.

Your responsibility is to the safety of your wife and yourself first. Pride recovers far faster than the body does.

No one wants a fight, but the attitude of complacency is the reason why our landscape is a dump nowadays wherever you go.

 

[shermacman]

Yeah, sit back and do nothing. Let the dirt ball throw trash. Let him escalate with his threats of violence. This piece of human debris has learned that he can go through life without anyone standing up to him.

Of course, he will also know that when he finds your wife or your sister or your mother alone he can do what ever he wants. He knows that no one has the guts to stop him!

Back down, drive off, what could go wrong?

 

[Matt G]

Hm. Conflict avoidance is absolutely a worthwhile goal. But I have to admit that I have a deep, burning hatred of litterbugs.

As a matter of fact, the other day I was walking across campus, and happened to notice that the fellow in front of me threw back the last of his soft drink and quickly threw the large plastic cup, top, and straw into a decorative shrub that we were walking alongside. Without a thought, I grabbed it out of the bush, yelled "Hey!!", and marched up to him as he turned around to face me, demanded "What are you doing? We don't throw trash down." As I shoved the trash back into his hands, I began to assess. I'm probably not quite the 6'5" that my driver's license still says I am (gravity is humbling), but it's noteworthy when I find myself craning my head back to look a guy in the eye. This guy was a very athletic 2 meters tall and perhaps 20 years old, to my more sedentary mid 30s. Add in the racial difference for possible conflict, and I didn't know what I was going to get back.

The guy sheepishly took the trash from me and said, "I'm sorry man-- that's not me. I don't know what I was thinking." He then ran it to a trash can. [Whew.]

So did I do it right? Probably not. I probably just lucked out, and showed the right amount of righteous indignation to a basically decent person who had a stupid lapse. But what are we to do? Nothing?

I think that a lot of this has to do with tone.

 

[joab]

I, for the first time, am having an internal conflict. Do I stand ideally by, and watch as value systems after value systems go down the tube, where might makes right, and evil men are free to do wrong under the banner of thuggary, or do I do what I know is right?

It's called growing up, or getting old as I prefer to call it.
I still remember the first time I backed down in deference to my adult responsibilities.
Part of me died that day,
the only part I ever liked

 

[jcoiii]

A great quote from a pretty good movie.....


"There's things that stick in a man's craw worse than dying"

I have this discussion with my wife all the time: It's about the principle not the specific action. In this case, I probably wouldn't have initially said anything, but if the guy saw me, say, shake my head in disgust, then decided to confront me about it....... There are some here who say principles be damned, stay alive. This is entirely acceptable. I am not one of those

 

[ceetee]

There's got to be a better way to open that conversation than shouting out, "Hey! Where do you get off littering?!"

Seems to me, a calmer opening line could've changed the entire confrontation. "Excuse me? I realize that you're in a cab, and have no easy way to dispose of your trash, but just tossing it out the window at me really isn't polite..." Something like that. Once you've chosen your course of action, though, it's hard to change courses in mid-stream. Congratulations for getting out of a violent exchange.

 

[Pilot]

I will not fight nor pull a weapon unless my life or families lives are in imminent danger. Backs against the wall and no other choice. In public, I avoid confrontations.

 

[Lupinus]

I don't advocate going out and dumping ten bags of trash out the window while driving but I don't think anyone can honastly say they have never in their life littered.

While Im a believer of stopping scumbags dumping your used mcdonalds bag and left overs is far from scumbag material.

 

[pax]

I don't advocate going out and dumping ten bags of trash out the window while driving but I don't think anyone can honastly say they have never in their life littered.

Not since I was six (got a spanking for it too), and never out of a vehicle.

pax

 

[Stand_Watie]

Twoblink, what is your take on the Taiwanese vs American attitude difference towards littering? I've read that Singapore has draconian anti-litter laws that are obeyed, and wondered if that applied to Taiwan as well.

I live in a particularly bad place for trash dumpers, a long stretch without any lights or other houses on a country road, and they get under my skin too. Saturday and Sunday mornings we are likely to find an old washing machine on the road by my house. Worst for me are the unwanted pet dumpers. Cruelty to an animal may not be a shooting offense, but these people really are scum (or incredibly ignorant).

Now if you could just find me a nice hungry Taiwanese family looking to emmigrate to move into our neighborhood we could have that problem licked (and before anybody jumps all over me about racist stereotypes that's a specific response to an earlier comment by twoblink)

 

[twoblink]

Trust me, this is not an issue that is solvable by 2 lines in a gun forum..

I can see things from both sides of the coin..

But the hard part is trying to decide, do I want to "live" long enough to have kids, but all the while, letting it all go to h3ll in a handbasket, so even when I have kids, it won't be a safe environment, OR do I want to risk death for my posterity?

Man, the more I think about it, the tougher it is..

And heaven forbid, I compromise my principles of what's right.

Actually, before I said anything, I POINTED at the trash. I said nothing. He then rolled down the window and started spitting in my general direction..


The SCARIEST part was, last night, I had a dream about Spiderman.. and how his Uncle died..

 

[spacemanspiff]

wait a minute.... you were on a scooter? with your wife?

 

[DelayedReaction]

Look, I'm not happy with the idea that somebody is so lazy that they can't even be bothered to hold their trash until they find a proper trash can. But confronting a total stranger in the middle of the road with your wife on the back of your bike is no way to change that problem. You're practically guaranteeing an escalation, and for absolutely no gain whatsoever. What was the guy going to do? Go "Gee sir, I hadn't considered it that way! Lemme get out of the taxi and clean that right up!"?

 

[Polishrifleman]

We talk about the erosion of the 2a, others talk about the 1st, then litter, then infant traffic deaths and what do you get more government because individuals don not take personal responsibility for their actions.

"It's not fair" as has been said before "life isn't fair". Follow up and accountability are two missing traits around the world no matter where you are.

As has been mentioned before, take the cab # or license # and provide it to the appropriate authorities. Be happy in the fact that you are doing something that 99% of the people who saw it happen are not doing. Ask the authorities what the course of action is and follow up with them. I would be interested to know how one is caught/fined or whatever for littering without physical proof (video tape, their fingerprints on the washer, DNA) how far will LE go to take care of the problem.

Good luck with the internal dilema, life is worth living, and your family should mean everything.

 

[DarkKnight01]

I don't advocate going out and dumping ten bags of trash out the window while driving but I don't think anyone can honastly say they have never in their life littered.

I havent littered in over 20 years.... the closest I come to littering... And I hate doing it... Is when im approaching a building of somekind that doesnt have out door ashtrays and I end up tossing my cigarette butt on the ground... but thats in a proximity where someone will clean it up eventually... job security for the guy that cleans the sidewalk heh, when im not in a hurry ill put it out on my boot or something and put it in my pocket til I find a trashcan... really makes ya stink heh, but as far as tossing trash out a car window NEVER, I yell at my S/O whenever she even tosses her cigarette butt out the window.... I say "we have an ashtray for that! mankind hurts mother earth enough.. they dont need your help"... and certainly never a mcdonalds bag or candy wrapper gets tossed out of my car... well just take a look inside my car ill prove it to you lol....

Im not sure how it is in Taiwan, but here in the USA many states have rather serious fines for littering... here in MI its 500$, on the interstates theres an 800 number to call and report people... whether or not anyone follows up on the calls is a mystery to me..

Anyhow, I think you handled the situation well, If it were me I probably would have put the guy in his place.... but thats me...

 

[Soap]

Albert- I think you should have tossed the trash back into the cab and rode off. Really, I would say that you did the right thing. You can't fight every battle against stupidity or evil, otherwise you would have zero time during your day to be productive. If you would have handed that guy an assbeating he would still be a jerk for the rest of his life. Pick your battles, namely, in making your own household stronger. Unfortunately, you do have to compromise. Training posterity and teaching others (who actually want to learn) is the best way to stamp out any kind of ignorance or stupidity.

 

[CatsDieNow]

I was driving my convertable with the top down when a woman tossed a cigarette butt out the window into my passenger seat. I caught up with her at the next light and flipped it back in her window and said, "I believe you dropped this" just as the light was changing to green.

I must have made a good flick since she was still rummaging at the light a half a mile later.

 

[DarkKnight01]

I was driving my convertable with the top down when a woman tossed a cigarette butt out the window into my passenger seat. I caught up with her at the next light and flipped it back in her window and said, "I believe you dropped this" just as the light was changing to green.

ROFL now thats funny!!!

 

[TheEgg]

I, for the first time, am having an internal conflict. Do I stand ideally by, and watch as value systems after value systems go down the tube, where might makes right, and evil men are free to do wrong under the banner of thuggary, or do I do what I know is right?

Chill out -- it was just littering -- Ming the Merciless was not about to destroy the Earth.

 

[rustymaggot]

think of it this way, your taxes pay the street sweeper to drive down that street regardless of how dirty your fellow man leaves it. you want to get in a fight over a piece of trash youve already paid a city worker to clean up? i can see it now. a prison sitcom.............


big bad dude in a orange jumpsuit: so hommie, whatcu in fo?

you: um, i got in a fight with a litterbug.



doesnt seem worth the trouble to me.