Almost had a "thugging" last night :-(

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On the problem of upholding values, I'd like to make the point that your kids are going to have to live in the world we create.

All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.

By upholding values NOW, we stay higher on that slippery slope for at least a little longer.

Sure, you could have been more polite. On the other hand, the other guy could have kept his trash for a little longer, asked the cabbie if he had a bag, etc. Just like backpackers packing out their trash.
 
We've certainly come to an odd state these days when the common line now is "ignore it" when something goes down.

Some guy litters in front of you? Oh no, don't say anything or even look at him, it might start a confrontation!

Some guy bumps into you and turns to start trouble? Oh no, run like hell, avoid conflict!!

Some guy parks illegally behind your vehicle and blocks you in? Oh no, don't ask him if he could move it, avoid conflict!!!

Some drunk bumps into your wife on the street and cops a feel? Oh no, don't tell him he should learn his manners, might start a problem, avoid conflict!!!!

:barf:

People can comfort themselves behind the ludicrous threat of doing jail time because some guy litters, you mention it to him, then he gets out of the car and a fight ensues if they want. Sounds a little silly to me.

Remember, HE "escalates" it by getting out of the car and starting the physical confrontation". There is no law that states you must cower in your homes or fail to advise someone that what they are doing is illegal or wrong. None. And doing so is also not a waiver of your right to defend yourself if the other party chooses to escalate the situation into a physical conflict.
 
Not sure littering is a gateway crime to rape and mass murder, so it sounds like you overreacted.

OTOH, when the guy got up in your face and you thought the fight was on you froze. Not good. What would the authorities done if you had laid the guy out with your kryptonite? Would they have charged and convicted you of assault and battery? If so do you think you would have been in the right?
 
Used to happen to my wife and I all the time in front of our house while raking leaves, mowing what have you. She's 5'2" and maybe 105 soaking wet
I'm 6'5" and about 250....

Kids/Adults walking down the street would just throw stuff in our yard - even if we were standing right there :what: :fire:

Anyhoo - tone and manner make all the difference in the world - Not being the diplomatic type, I'd usually start with something like "hey you - don't throw your crap on my lawn!" - responses varied from surly complience to profane replies to in your face let's fight types like twoblink encountered...

Strange thing was - when my wife went after them - 90% of the time she got a sheepish - "oh, I'm sorry" from them and they'd pick it up and be on thier way.

She had this way of smiling sweetly and saying something along the lines of "Hey you dropped something, I'm sure you didn't mean to litter..." that and the non threatening demeanor and size made all the difference in the world.

Teenagers & young men especially reacted poorly to me - had to save face you know - but for her it was "yes ma'am, no ma'am" and on thier way with trash in hand....
 
Disappointing conduct

This is a disappointing thread. I expect more self-restraint from CCW holders. To speak of having a knife in one hand and a bike lock in the other...because of a litter-bug. Are you serious?! What we have here, unless I miss read it, is a person who engaged in reactive misconduct (pulling a knife and bike lock), said same which would have justified the litter-bug drawing a CCW. Did I miss something here?

Doc2005 :confused:
 
I am sure that escalating that situation was not the best thing to do (But I might have done the same thing)

However, the problem is dude probably feels like a big man now, and his general attitude worsened a little, by not only getting away with the littering, but also by being the "alpha male"

Thats one of those dirty harry moments, when a gun in his face, as he sheepishly picked up the trash, and drove away is not reality.

Sucks that we can't defend/uphold certain decencies as private citizens. The world is a rude place, where ignorance is common, and chivary and respect certainly are dead or dying.


Of course, you could be American and simply slip/crash becasue of the trash, then sue him, the cab company, the city, me, the pope, and felix the cat too....:neener: :neener:
 
Some guy litters in front of you? Oh no, don't say anything or even look at him, it might start a confrontation!
1. What are you some kind of pig, pick that s**t up!
His response... he actually picked it up.... that surprised me. I expected to
get flipped off.

Some guy bumps into you and turns to start trouble? Oh no, run like hell, avoid conflict!!
2. Can I help you?!?! ...while staring eye to eye.
His response was a rude snorted "excuse me" and walked off.

Some guy parks illegally behind your vehicle and blocks you in? Oh no, don't ask him if he could move it, avoid conflict!!!
3. Hey, can you move you car so I can get out of here?
Car moved no problem. Guy apologized even. "Oh, sorry man".

Some drunk bumps into your wife on the street and cops a feel? Oh no, don't tell him he should learn his manners, might start a problem, avoid conflict!!!!
4. Never had this one (no wife)... that all depends on witnesses. No one
around, he is going to slip and fall.... a lot. If there are witnesses, I'm sure
I can get him to take a swing at me... if I can keep my head.

10 years or so a go the answer to 2 and 4 would have been without words
right off the bat.... but I grew up a little.... sort of a sad thing I think at
times. :(
 
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Are you ready to die over littering? Learn to pick your fights and when to let it go.

Otherwise post your name and address so we'll know where to send the funeral flowers and a condolence card to your just widowed wife.
 
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

Well, the legal system has no care for "good" or "evil", only law.

I think maintaining the status of being a law-abiding citizen means that you're likely going to have to endure turning a blind eye to a lot of things that are wrong (and possibly mildly illegal). Otherwise you may unexpectedly find yourself in a situation where the law determines that you deserve punishment for the outcome of your actions if they escalate, however right you may have initially been.

You can do everything morally right in your opinion, and still go to prison for your actions, so choose your "corrective interventions" wisely.

As for calling the cops on litterbugs?
Well, I don't know how much of a priority that is, or what they can really do about it secondhand.

.
 
Correct feeling, incorrect action. For a CCW in MN, if it had escalated to use of arms, YOU would have been faulted for being a "willing participant" in the altercation. I liked the suggestion of a more polite approach. Those who think that is not a strong enough reaction may not like that idea, but it actually shows strength. Your wife is a smart lady, and more than that, she seems to be fond of having you around. As has been brought up many times in this thread, pick your battles. It's not about being right (his actions were wrong), but rather about whether it was worth the hassle. Some have said that you can't let anyone "get away" with anything. I'd guess many of these people "get away" with whatever they can, when they can. What do we do next, run over jaywalkers? Littering is uncivilized, his behavior was uncivilized, but being a jackass is not illegal (yeah, the littering was). Anyway, hope you're having a better day. Remember, don't let the b*st*rds get you down! :D
 
Driving home the other day after hearing that we're under a red-flag alert fire warning due to dry and windy conditions.

The moron in front of me flicked out a lit cigarrette. I don't know what people are thinking... Don't they see the burned patches next to the highway? Doesn't it register in their pea-brains how that happens?

Not a big fan of littering, but even less of a fan of smokers who feel the world is their ashtray.

Please don't jump on me for hating smokers, that's not what I said. I've got nothing against smokers, just don't like the ones who have no problem dumping their butts all over the place, lit or not.

I hate to keep quiet, but I sure would hate to have to kill someone as a result of an argument about littering. I generally keep my mouth shut.
 
DelayedReaction said:
You shouldn't have escalated. The person wasn't evil, or some force to fight in the name of righteousness. He's a jackass who throws trash out the window.

Your responsibility is to the safety of your wife and yourself first. Pride recovers far faster than the body does.

I agree. There is quite a difference between being an inconsiderate ??????? (95% of Americans), and actualy being EVIL.

He was just a Fat stupid slob. Let him go.
 
Rage is a very dangerous thing. Once after a particularly emotional episode with ex, I left the house seething. A guy cut me off in a parking lot and I tossed a couple of words at him. He proceeded to stop, blocking me, large passenger started to get out and was surprised to find me greeting him at his door. He stammered, "I have another friend in the car". Looking at him thru slitted eyes and a red haze, I naturally said, "get him out, I'm gonna kick both your asses." I was ready for a fight and wanted one, planning to inflict violence on them as a substitute for my ex. It must have shown in my face that I was nearly insane with anger, because he slid back into the car, motioned to the driver and he peeled out. I'm not bragging, because that was incredibly stupid. I would probably have gotten beat to hell by two big guys, but I was ready to try them. They may have thought I was armed or something. I wasn't. I still remember being angry that they left.
I have always been amazed when I think of this episode, and it is a good lesson to me. You never know what mental frame a nasty person is in, or what may come of loss of control. I usually just ignore stupid behavior on the road since then, for I realize just how angry and crazy the other person may be.
Other types of behavior that is really threatening, I will respond to with whatever is necessary, trying to think and remain in control. Stay out of road rage incidents, or you might needlessly get into deadly combat. Blindly stepping into a confrontation has cost lots of lives.:(
 
Spiderman? I was thinking Jackie Chen....

You know, take out the other guy with a helmet in hand while jumping off walls.


Seriously, I understand your contemplation. I too was overzealous in trying to enforce a social norm that is long eroded. (aside: I was yelling, "hey you're going the wrong way" to every scooter going against traffic. My Taiwan-raised wife was mortified, not by the traffic-law breakers but by my attempt to right wrongs)

Yes, it comes down to a balancing act between survival of the individual and survival of the social norm _IF_ any kind of enforcement leads to death threats by escalation. True that I could've taken a more gentle approach. But the central issue remains: Do I take no personal responsibility for social failures _for fear_ of bodily harm?

Your internal debate is a good thing. It means you value your family over yourself. Otherwise your response would be the same as when you're a bachelor. "no fear shall prevent spiderman from doling out justice" This is counter to the chinese conditioning of "sweep your own door-snow" that gave chinese the reputation of cowardice. (nothing with yellow). (more) Righteous young men _should_ shrugg off threats of bodily harm in enforcing a polite society. Anything else would be uncivilized. (fine print: following this path of thinking and action will lead to bodily harm)

So now with age and family, i guess someone else wrote best, more diplomacy. But the task remains on all men. (I'm using "men" conciously. PM me for additional discussion if you cant square with it )
 
I litter all the time.

In my study, where it eventually gets cleaned up. Productive computer sessions may see 20 soda cans and assorted food wrappers/plates/whatnot.

But not outdoors. Not unless you call the trashmen being sloppy "littering."

Having said that, it's not something I'd initiate a potentially violent confrontation over.
 
I litter all the time.

In my study, where it eventually gets cleaned up. Productive computer sessions may see 20 soda cans and assorted food wrappers/plates/whatnot.

That's not littering, it's territorial marking.

:)
 
Everyone has his or her own way I suppose. I have no problem with letting someone know when they're in the wrong, but I tend to do it in a non-threatening way.


If I see someone litter:

"Hey man, that's not cool, come on." in a disappointed tone. Usually works. Never had a fight ensue over this.


Someone bumps into me:

"Hi, can I help you?" in a warm tone with a smile.


Someone blocks me in:

"Sir, I may have to move my car and you're kind of blocking me in, are you going to be long?" same warm tone.


Etc...


The point is, there's nothing illegal or wrong about saying something to someone when they break a rule or a social norm. You do your best not to aggravate the situation and be done with it. I see too many people living in fear of the dreaded "if you say something to someone, and they turn and try to attack you, and you kill them, you go to jail" scenario. This is simply not true.

Show me a case where a person A began conversing with another over something in a non-violent manner, then person B escalated the issue with verbal threats and ultimately physical violence, and person A used a firearm or other weapon to defend themselves while the threat was active and imminent and they ultimately went to jail for defending their own life without having done something else illegal or wrong.

I'd like to see one. If someone litters, and you ask them to pick their trash up in a calm and civilized manner, and they bring physical violence or the threat of imminent harm to you, I don't see you going to jail without having actually done something illegal. If they cuss at you but in no way make a physical move towards you and you shoot, you'll be in a world of trouble. If they hit you and you shoot, and then finish them off with a head shot after they're down and the threat ceases, you will be in a lot of trouble. Aside from things like that, I know of no free state that will put someone in jail for defending their life against an attacker simply because the shooter struck up a conversation over a trivial or even controversial matter in a civilized and reasonable fashion.


Do I advocate the death penalty for littering? No, which is why you discuss the littering with words, not bullets. But when the litterbug escalates the issue by threatening harm or violence over littering, it becomes a matter of threat and intent, not littering (that was already addressed by the conversation). I do advocate the death penalty for perpetrating physical violence or harm onto one's fellow citizens.
 
jcoiii said:
There are some here who say principles be damned, stay alive. This is entirely acceptable. I am not one of those
+1

I'm glad you got in the guy's face, but it is too bad that the "right" thing to do is back down. Every single day I flip someone off because they just flicked a cigarette butt out the window in front of me. I know that one day one of them will stop their car and retaliate. I just hope I'm ready when they do. I get sick and tired of seeing every single intersection covered with cigarette butts, and it's something nobody else wants to deal with. It means a lot to me, so I choose to be confrontational.
 
It's entirely possible to confront someone without being confrontational ... as others have pointed out.

It's a fine art, and obviously becoming a lost art too. Too bad.

pax
 
Every single day I flip someone off because they just flicked a cigarette butt out the window in front of me.
In TX, flipping someone off is grounds for suspension of your carry permit if it "tends to incite an immediate breach of the peace"...
§ 411.187. SUSPENSION OF LICENSE.
(a) A license may be suspended under this section if the license holder:
(1) is charged with the commission of a Class A or Class B misdemeanor or an offense under Section 42.01, Penal Code, or of a felony under an information or indictment;
§ 42.01. DISORDERLY CONDUCT.
(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:
(1) uses abusive, indecent, profane, or vulgar language in a public place, and the language by its very utterance tends to incite an immediate breach of the peace;
(2) makes an offensive gesture or display in a public place, and the gesture or display tends to incite an immediate breach of the peace;...
 
Working Man said:
13. Hey, can you move you car so I can get out of here?
Car moved no problem. Guy apologized even. "Oh, sorry man".


LOL, not always. I had a guy get in my face over this EXACT thing (Pretty sure that was the intended pun)
 
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