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And here is the 'catch' for Chicago cops who want to carry M-4's... (Sun Times)

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Neo-Luddite, May 16, 2008.

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  1. [FH]K96

    [FH]K96 Member

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    Yeah that is pretty low standards to meet for a profession deals with a lot of physical activity.

    Let say the average male officer weighs 200 lbs., with that formula he must be able to bench around 175 lbs. once- that is not very much.
     
  2. Don Gwinn

    Don Gwinn Moderator Emeritus

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    Yes, BUT . . . . again . . . . what does it have to do with proficiency with a rifle?

    Bottom line: they wanted to say they were giving officers M4's. But they do NOT want:

    1. To spend the money to arm 9,000-odd officers with these rifles, or

    2. To spend the money to train that many officers, or

    3. To put out the money for ammo to train that many officers, or

    4. To cope with what they see as the liability problems with arming that many officers with "military assault weapons."

    That's what this is about. It was a showpiece from the start. They're not serious about doing anything about crime, including arming their police. Now, admittedly, arming cops better is about 99th on my list of things to do about crime in Chicago, but they want credit for doing it, so it becomes an issue when they weasel out of doing it.
     
  3. cletusberontwood

    cletusberontwood Member

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    Anything to make our fat-ass cops get in shape is good by me.

    Our police force is embarassing..
     
  4. ZMP_CTR

    ZMP_CTR Member

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    I almost had to move to IL for work. I was not a happy camper. I am glad I didn't have to go! What a joke.
     
  5. Neo-Luddite

    Neo-Luddite Member

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    A rifle isn't? It seems as wrong to me to deny them an effective weapon as it would be to deny them body armor.

    Soybomb, my sentiments exactly.
     
  6. arthurcw

    arthurcw Member

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    Not very High Road cletus.

    This is not really about if cops are out of shape or not. Linking physical fitness to firearms is a bad idea.

    "Sorry little lady, you can't have this big ol' .45. You need this itty bitty little air weight .38 soes you doesn't hurt your little ol' self."

    "Sorry son but we just can't have some guy in a wheel chair luggin' around a big ol' shot gun. You might hurt yourself. Here, take this... On second thought, you don't get anything. You can't fend for yourself anyway. Here's a phone with 911 on speed dial."

    "Sorry tubby, you are too large to run or be in a fight, so you only get to carry a less accurate less powerful weapon. Serves you right for having that extra Cruller."

    Physical fitness is NOT a reason to allow or disallow needed personal weapons from ANYONE.
     
  7. Sage of Seattle

    Sage of Seattle Member

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    I don't see them being denied anything. If they can demonstrate that they are in REASONABLE shape, then they can have a bunch of M-4's and juggle them like a circus clown for all I care. A similar situation would be that if ballistic vests are only made up to a certain size and you're fatter than that, no one is denying you a vest -- YOU'RE the one who can't fit in one because of your weight. No one is denying you a vest though.

    Anyway, I tend to agree with all of those in this thread that say that one really has nothing to do with the other; I'm just playing devil's advocate.

    And, it's obvious that they do have adequate tools for the job; isn't that why there are SWAT teams? For the once in a blue moon type incident?
     
  8. lysander

    lysander Member

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    Maybe when SWAT was first pitched...but function creep sees SWAT doing everything these days.

    This is a great follow-up thread. Looks to me like Chicago's new "top cop" is really pushing for the "change in organizational culture" that he was brought in to accomplish.
     
  9. Soybomb

    Soybomb Member

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    I just don't see what general fitness has to do with having a rifle for defending themselves. I doubt any of them are so out of shape they can't hold one. If their fitness is that bad them off the streets. If you're putting them on the streets you need to give them the best equipment you have and not "punish" them by making them go without.

    "Sorry Sanchez, you've porked up....we're taking your handgun and cuffs. Maybe that will motivate you to watch the doughnuts."
     
  10. Sage of Seattle

    Sage of Seattle Member

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    Neither do I. I agree with Don above. As I just said, I'm playing devil's advocate with these statements.



    Yup. Exactly. I think the probability of that happening is hovering around zero.

    I find it rather pathetic, however, that people and law enforcement agencies in general are clamoring for more and more military stuff -- military hardware, military tactics, military training EXCEPT military physical fitness standards.
     
  11. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    Considering just who brought him in, I am not all that convinced there is any desire for real change. Maybe some window dressing here and there.
     
  12. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    One of the following is true:

    1. Weis is a yes man who will do whatever Daley tells him.

    2. Weis is his own man and will be cut off at the knees the first time he crosses Daley.

    If there's a difference in outcome, I'm not seeing it.
     
  13. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    Given the documented history of the Chicago PD, especially its RECENT history, no one should have any illusions that any such firearms will be used to DEFEND police any more than their current handguns and shotguns (which they aren't allowed to touch).

    The problem with the Chicago PD is NOT that it's "outgunned" (which it isn't), but its complete and utter lack of leadership and discipline. Yet ANOTHER Chicago cop has attacked citizens in a drunken rage. http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/956466,beating051708.article Word on the street is that he has a LONG history of sociopathic behavior. Yet he's STILL a cop.

    If the Chicago PD is unwilling or unable to weed the psychopaths out of its ranks, the LAST thing they need is MORE firearms. Perhaps they'd be better off being restricted to clubs... or Nerf bats until they can be thoroughly purged of the criminal element.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2008
  14. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    I think Daley is getting an enormous amount of heat to deal with the rogue element of the CPD. I suspect Weis has a mandate to do something about that. I don't know how far that mandate goes. You can't really create an honest department that is subservient to the criminal element that runs Chicago though. And you can't purge the rogue element from the CPD ranks without substantially improving the leadership of the CPD at all levels. Its pretty abysmal right now. That could end up having unintended effects. That why past attempts at reforming the CPD have mostly failed, because the politicians are willing to only go so far.
     
  15. granuale

    granuale Member

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    Hmmm.... And what is the test for female police?
     
  16. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    Chicago has the sort of police department that those running the city want. Word has it that this Callahan character was kept on the job due to involvement by Daley.

    Corruption in an organization is like infection in the body. You can't confine it to arbitrary locations in the organization. Sooner rather than later, it will take over the organism/organization as a whole. And of course that affects every bodily/organizational function. Cancer subverts the body so that it's principle function is to create more cancer. Corruption subverts the organization so that it's principle function is to support existing corrupt activities and to expand the opportunities for additional corruption.

    Willingness to have SOME corruption is like willingness to have SOME cancer.
     
  17. atomemphis

    atomemphis Member

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    Agreed. It is ridiculous that people who must engage in a physical job can't do 100% of their bodyweight. :eek: :barf:

    And they need to make that running requirement a little faster also, fat folks can run that fast...

    This is regardless of what weapon certifications or requirements there are.
     
  18. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    You have to have some sympathy for the 75% of CPD officers that are decent and want to do what's right. They just can't make much difference without support from above, and that just does not exist.
     
  19. bhart89

    bhart89 Member

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    Sounds like they are excluding woman from carrying AR's.
     
  20. MakAttak

    MakAttak Member

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    Or, perhaps, they are using the English language as it was meant to be used where the third person masculine personal pronoun can be used to refer to something belonging to men and women in general?
     
  21. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    SOME, maybe. On the other hand, the ONLY people who don't know what the Chicago PD is all about are members of the former Imperial Japanese Army and Navy, hold out on Pacific islands, waiting for the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere to get its second wind. Who knows BETTER what goes on in the CPD than officers of the CPD? They can plead a lot of things. Ignorance isn't one of them. They either participate or they acquiesce. Neither is acceptable.

    But then individual cops are irrelevant when the fundamental INFRASTRUCTURE of the DEPARTMENT is profoundly and completely corrupt, as it is. What if your uncle was a nice guy who just made pizza at one of the operations that were part of the "Pizza Connection"? Does that change the nature of the organization or of his participation even though he KNEW that heroin was being moved through the restaurant where he worked? How about if he was the manager?

    At what point does unwillingness to see become complicity?
     
  22. Ltlabner

    Ltlabner Member

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    Huh?

    I have a box of Federal .22LR's that cleary state "Dangerous within 1.5 miles". Does he want special PT quals for a police officer to handle one of those too?

    1,760 yards (i.e one mile) means that the shooter basically launched a bullet like an artillery shell. A police officer, in theory, is going to be firing aimed shots. So even in the "huffy and puffy" scenario where the officer misses, the bullet is going to drop to the earth long before a mile is ever reached. Is a miss still dangerous...of corse. But lets not act like one miss of nearly aimed fire will just go on and on forever and defy gravity.

    Then on the pistol end of things, this yahoo is claiming that a pistol can clear out to 440 yards. Really. Wow. That's some darn impressive shooting with a 9mm or .40S&W. I suppose I could walk it in like artillery fire.

    M4's need lots of training. So do Glock 19's, Beretta 92's or S&W 4006's. I hope to God the police recieve regular and intensive training for ALL of their weapons.

    Ah hell, why would I expect anyone in goverment to know diddly about firearms?
     
  23. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    What would you have the decent ones do? Quit? Or stick it out and hope things improve somehow.
     
  24. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    What would you have ANYBODY do who's part of a criminal enterprise? If the employees of your local grocery store knew the meat department was selling tainted beef, what would you have THEM do?

    They should be turning their co-workers in right and left. But if they had moral qualms about corruption and wrongdoing, would they have joined the Chicago PD in the first place?

    The time for sympathy is LONG past. If you stay in that environment and you say and do NOTHING about it, you're PART of it.
     
  25. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    Just who would they turn them in to? The CPD? The state's attorney? The state attorney general? None of them want anything to do with it (seeing as they are mostly active conspirators with the criminal enterprise known as Chicago), and the feds are only interested in high profile stuff.
     
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