carrying with one in the chamber

[SuperFlanker]

i carry for a double action first shot safety off. that's over 10 pounds of trigger pull on a stock USP. There is no way that thing is going off by accident.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I carry a hot handloaded H-P chambered in both my Makarov and Beretta .32acp (both fairly stiff triggers and safetys) and fmj in the magazine.

 

[Col. Plink]

Great thread, y'all, really

This is probably the most inportant thread discussion to have on a site like THR. With so many new shooters (and carriers!) and different configurations of firing mechanisms and safeties, an exhaustive discussion is CRITICAL. Thanks to all those Who are tryng to add coherent reasoning to such an important topic. I have been thinking about this a lot because I want a CHL for Tejas and would want to be able to respond to a bad situation quickly without complicated (read: two-handed) maneuvers.

BUT...

I have a pistol that (when a round is chambered) can be fired by ONE intentional or unintentional move. It is a striker-fired pistol without what I call a mechanical safety (i.e. one that prevents firing when the trigger is squeezed). Even with a grip "safety" (something of a misnomer in my opinion), something protruding into the trigger guard could cause a discharge when holstering/drawing the weapon. Firing should be an INTENTIONAL act, meaning it seems to me that TWO actions should be required to accomplish it, hopefully insuring that the intent of a person is required to fire the gun.

Now, my pistol can be handled more safely in some ways than others (as is true for all of them). It can be holstered/drawn without depressing the grip safety. This is an improvement but also more difficult and certainly does not prevent the grip from being depressed if one adjusts their grip. We're still left with a gun that can be fired by one movement. A Glock does not have a grip safety but a pistol that does is still not prevented from firing if the grip and trigger get pushed at the same time.

In my opinion a pistol that can be put "on safe" (where it wouldn't fire even if someone picked it up and squeezed it) but that can be fired with TWO one-handed moves (i.e. a safety release and a trigger pull) insures firing is an intentional act but one that can be accomplished quickly with one hand. I would be very nervous carrying a weapon that did not take an intentional move to put in ready-to-fire mode. Of course thumb safeties can be disengaged unintentionally, but at the same time I doubt anyone carries an autoloader chambered with the thumb safety OFF. I'm betting if they have one its engaged when the chamber is loaded. Thumb flick and pull the 'bang switch' and you're fully functional. I am kind of sad because I think I'll have to get a different pistol to carry if I choose to do so.

Oh well, an excuse to get a Browning Hi-Power!

For what it's worth, it's possible the dog activated the trigger with a claw or something, and the same thing could happen to pistol with a grip "safety" if it's being held. A thumb safety that has to be disengaged before firing seems the safest route. It's probably a function of the attempt to carry in an environment that is not by definition life-threatening. In battle, I'd guess something without a thumb safety would ALWAYS be carried in ready-to-fire mode.

 

[shooter1]

Threads on this topic keep popping up. It's rare to go a month without seeing one! It seems to be a common perception that it's impossible to maintain control of that pesky little trigger thingy, and we need more mechanical devices to protect us from ourselves. Not to mention the maverick shirt tails and dog paws that might somehow pull the triggers on our heater. I submit that proper training in gun handling will make us much safer than any other safety device one can dream up. Having grown up around guns and carried all of my adult life, most of the time for a living, I have seen NDs with ALL action types, including DA revolvers. Most of these by fellow police officers. These NDs all had one thing in common: They all pulled the trigger! If one is incapable of learning, or unwilling to learn how to safely handle and run a gun, then by all means carry it unloaded, or better yet, not at all. A man's got to know his limitations! :banghead:
str1

 

[wormserco]

Always with one in the pipe. I carry a Kimber Pro Carry II, condition 1 or a Springfield XD 45ACP compact. No matter how fast you are carrying without one in the chamber creates a risk of the slide not going forward into battery when you manually cycle it. Plus it ties up your support hand which is bad if you're having to push the person away at 4' as you draw.

 

[NavyLCDR]

These NDs all had one thing in common: They all pulled the trigger!

Not true. Some NDs happen because of a dirty or corroded firing pin/channel causing a slam fire.

But I would still rather have that slam fire happen in a controlled environment, where I know exactly where the muzzle is pointed and when I have time to deal with the situation, rather than in the heat of the SHTF moment.

That's why I always chamber the round in a controlled environment (before I leave the house with my carry weapon): I want that action to occur in a completely controlled environment so that I am not betting my life that it occurs reliability in the middle of a SHTF moment and, in the remote chance a slam fire occurs, I know exactly where that bullet is going.

 

[shooter1]

NavyLT
ND------Negligent Discharge: Caused by,--------you guessed it! Operator negligence.
I say again, they all pulled the trigger!
AD--------Accidental Discharge, -------------caused by a condition out of the operator's control.
Could be a mechanical malfunction like you mentioned above.
Both are Unintended Discharges, but entirely two different things.
str1

 

[NavyLCDR]

Good point. I will revise my statement: "I would rather have an AD because of a mechanical malfunction, which is most likely to occur during the act of chambering a round, in a controlled environment rather than in a SHTF environment."

 

[shooter1]

LT,

Agree totally!!

str1

 

[John Parker]

but only if you, or your girlfriend, "fingers the trigger"

You can 'finger my trigger' any day.

 

[Zerodefect]

But what if my empty chamber gun accidentally escapes its holster and cocks itself!?

Omg! I better carry empty magwell with my magazine in my pocket......Oh tehnoes, what if I drop my mag? Could it go off? What if it bounces up lands in my pistol which falls out of its holster cocking itself and lands trigger first on my little toe?

I cant take it anymore.....I think my ammo comes out of the safe at night and is planning to get me.

 

[loneviking]

To say that a round-chambered Glock is as safe as a revolver is pure nonsense. It's almost as safe as a hammerless revolver but not nearly as safe as a standard revolver. When a Glock trigger is activated, you can not see and can barely feel internal movement. When a revolver trigger is activated you can see a cylinder turning; you can see a hammer moving; and, you can feel these various stages in the trigger.

Exactly! Which is why I've come to prefer the Sigs. They have a hammer that you can ride as you place the gun into and out of the holster. You could feel the hammer move when you are carrying the gun. You can also very quickly brush against the gun when carrying and tell that the hammer is down. And when the hammer is uncocked and needs to be safetied, the decock lever is there for you to do that maneuver safely.

And always, always, always get a good leather or kydex holster and check to make sure that the trigger can NOT be pressed or moved through the holster material.

I prefer one in the pipe, but there are some semi-auto's that just aren't safe to carry this way.

 

[SHusky57]

Reply to plink:
I was in your shoes and got a Browning HP. The BHP is just absolutely fantastic. Get one!

There are basically 3 safeties.
1) Trigger (duh)
2) Thumb safety
3) half-cock notch. If your gun is that broken that when you disengage the thumb safety the hammer falls to fire without a trigger pull, the half-cock notch will catch it

 

[lordmegatron]

i'm not going to have one in the chamber

 

[shooter1]

Chances are you'll never need it anyway, it might be safer yet if it remained in the safe.
Summation: Anyone feeling that they don't have sufficient control over their weapon to safely carry it in a "Ready" condition, certainly should not do so.
str1

 

[loneviking]

For those who aren't going to carry with one in the chamber, you need to watch this video and think about how/when you would have had a chance to chamber a round. Although this video was shot in Brazil, it's a scenario that could play out right here in the USA:

http://video.globo.com/Videos/Playe...NTISTA+TROCAM+TIROS+EM+SANTA+CATARINA,00.html

 

[Zerodefect]

awesome vid!

That first guy drew when the BG allready had him at point black! with a slow as molasses draw! And he reached out to aim and shoot instead of quickly shooting from a retension position!

Sure took a long time for the BG die.

Thats normal, close range without a second to spare.

 

[shooter1]

Looked at the video. By all rights they both should have been dead.
str1

 

[loneviking]

Sure took a long time for the BG die.

Unless you manage a head shot, you'd better figure on 10 seconds for a fatal wound to cause the bad guys' body to collapse. From viewing the video, I would guess that the GG's first shot with the BG's left arm up and the gun firing under the BG's arm, likely went into the lung and heart. The GG did take one round into the shoulder, probably when they clinched and the GG was drawing. There was NO time to draw and rack a slide as only one hand was free. Keep shooting and scootin' until the BG goes down!

 

[Gardien]

1 in the chamber and safety OFF with my SA. Why should I carry it any different that my 642?

Keeps it simple-point and shoot.