Contacted by BATFE today!!

[flrfh213]

i have learned IF ANYONE ASKS THEY CAN BE TOLD NO. if you are told or demanded then it is safe to worry....

 

[waterhouse]

It's always been that way as long as I've had my license,
Purchase more than 3 handguns in a month, expect a visit.

I've filled out multiple purchase paperwork on average of 40+ times a year (a little less than one a week) for the past several years. I generally ask my customers about it. I've put as many as 14 handguns on one form. I've only heard from one customer that got a visit from the ATF. While it may happen, it is not generally the norm. How long have you had your license? I'm curious about the 3 guns in a month rule, I've never heard that one, but it could be a law before my time.

I used to be you couldn't buy more than TWO from the same dealer or he was REQUIRED to report the purchases, and that rule still stands,
But now they are putting purchases together by SSN, and by firearm type in the computers databases.

What state are you in? The SSN isn't even required to buy a gun. Where did you get this information? Are you talking about state laws or some sort of federal database?

If you live in Indiana and buy up a bunch of rim fire rifles, it's no biggie.
Live in Arizona and buy up a bunch of big bore handguns or semi-auto center fire rifles, expect a visit.

Again, where do you get this information? The NICS check doesn't even have an option to put in data about caliber or action type. They would know about a bunch of handguns, big bore or not, due to multiple purchase paperwork, but you could buy 50 semi auto rifles and all they would know is that you bought A long gun.

Oh yeah and anyone still saying 4473 is not a form of registration is fooling themselves.

As long as private sales of firearms remain legal the 4473 is no means of registering anything. If they pass laws to close the so called "gun show loophole", then the 4473s may be considered a registration issue.

 

[scndactive]

As long as private sales of firearms remain legal the 4473 is no means of registering anything. If they pass laws to close the so called "gun show loophole", then the 4473s may be considered a registration issue.

If this is true then how did my name come up?

If you live in Indiana and buy up a bunch of rim fire rifles, it's no biggie.
Live in Arizona and buy up a bunch of big bore handguns or semi-auto center fire rifles, expect a visit.

Process of elimination? I have a few misdemeanor convictions from my early years but nothing keeping me from buying or possessing a firearm. could this be the catalyst

3 semi-auto pistols purchased from the same FFL within a week (one was purchased by my wife)+ 5 hours from the boarder+ prior record = lets pay this guy a visit. I sure hope your right, if not its going to be a long summer.

They were polite, I was polite, I saw no need to act otherwise, but I was not going to roll over for them either. I shook their hands and told them I appreciate their concern. A half hour later I noticed an "unmarked" Crown Vic parked 100 yards from my drive in the park near my house. Tin foil hat??

you could buy 50 semi auto rifles and all they would know is that you bought A long gun.

50 long guns sold to an individual from one FFL, 200 or so miles from the boarder will likely get looked into. While I agree this should not happen, I would be surprised if it did not.

I will post updates.

 

[Tiomoid]

flexyourrights.org

 

[TexasRifleman]

If this is true then how did my name come up?

I think Waterhouse' point is that with legal private sales the 4473 isn't a guaranteed registration system since you might legally have sold all of the handguns by the time someone came looking for them.

If they outlaw private sales the 4473 should be close to 100% accuracy becasue if you sold something, there is another 4473 to continue the search til the gun is found. That is de facto registration.

 

[waterhouse]

If this is true then how did my name come up?

Because of this:

3 semi-auto pistols purchased from the same FFL within a week

As mentioned earlier in this thread (see deadin's post #3), as soon as you purchased the second one within a 5 day period, a multiple handgun form was faxed into the ATF.

The multiple sales form includes your name and address, as well as the make, model, serial number, and caliber of the guns you bought.

When they went to collect the 4473s they probably scanned the books. If your wife has the same last name as you they saw her purchase as well.

Your proximity to the border may have something to do with the visit, especially if you live along a major north-south corridor (IH-35 in TX). There is a whole task force that is trying to deal with guns going into Mexico, and one of their jobs is to check on multiple handgun purchases.

50 long guns sold to an individual from one FFL, 200 or so miles from the boarder will likely get looked into. While I agree this should not happen, I would be surprised if it did not.

It would only get looked into if a dealer thought something was suspicious and called the ATF about it. My point was that 2 handguns = extra paperwork that gets faxed to the ATF. 50 long guns does not equal any extra paperwork.

When a dealer fills out the data on the NICS background check, there is a box that says handgun, a box that says long gun, and a box for receivers.

The dealer simply checks a box. The only thing the gov't knows at this point is that John Smith bought a long gun. That's it. He may have bought one, or he may have bought 5, or he may have bought 50.

When you buy a handgun, the dealer checks the box for handguns. From NICS, there is no way to know if you bought one handgun, or 5, or 50. However, with handguns the separate (non-NICS) multiple purchase paperwork must be filled out and submitted.

 

[JohnBT]

"Any time a couple individuals with the power to send me to Federal prison"

You don't know much about the justice system in this country, do you? It takes a prosecutor and a judge too to get things moving in that direction.

John

 

[TexasRifleman]

You don't know much about the justice system in this country, do you? It takes a prosecutor and a judge too to get things moving in that direction.

And we've seen how readily those 2 are to go along with Federal agencies haven't we?

Let's be honest, prosecutors and judges are not completely impartial when it comes to Federal agencies.

 

[MT GUNNY]

Do you still Own the Three Firearms the Feds asked you about ?

 

[JohnBT]

"And we've seen how readily those 2 are to go along with Federal agencies haven't we?
Let's be honest, prosecutors and judges are not completely impartial when it comes to Federal agencies."

And your own lawyer might be working for the other side. Life is full of risk. So there's honesty and there's accuracy and the statement I was responding to was not accurate.

John

 

[runrabbitrun]

So we now have Federal agents going to specific homes
AFTER people are legally buying firearms? Nice

Is it legal to purchase as many as you want in one week?
But if you purchase more than three in one week your somehow
now a suspect of some unlawful act?
(Or at the least now being placed on a 'list' somewhere,
for a possible follow up visit to your abode?)

Wow

 

[kd7nqb]

The way I see it its all about numbers,

1. The .gov still believes that most of the guns in mexico are being purchased legally, most of us on this bored know thats crap but its another matter.

2. If they are being purchased legally then looking at somebody who is buying lots of guns in a short period is a logical place to start.

3. I dont like the BATFE any more than most of us on the board but they never accused him of doing anything wrong, just a status check. To some this is a massive invasion of privacy to others its a worthless and stupid exercise.


If this happened to me I would have nicely told them that they could wait outside while I get the guns they asked for. I would bring them ONLY those guns and they would be leaving as soon as they were done.

 

[sarge83]

My shop won't even consider two handguns in 5 days. They will flat out tell you, 5 full business days before they will allow you to buy another handgun rather than put up with reporting to the ATF.

Sucks when you have a couple on layaway and the tax refund comes in...

 

[CoRoMo]

By law, the only info retained by the computer system is the NICS transaction number, and the type of gun sold, IE Hangdgun, long gun ect. All other info has to be deleted within 24 hours of the transaction, unless it was a delayed transaction.

Because the law enforcers never violate the law.

A half hour later I noticed an "unmarked" Crown Vic parked 100 yards from my drive in the park near my house.

Welcome to the DoHS watch list.

 

[blkbrd666]

A half hour later I noticed an "unmarked" Crown Vic parked 100 yards from my drive in the park near my house.

Call Dominos and have them deliver two large supreme pizzas to them.

 

[scndactive]

Quote:
A half hour later I noticed an "unmarked" Crown Vic parked 100 yards from my drive in the park near my house.

Call Dominos and have them deliver two large supreme pizzas to them.

LOL, wish I had thought of that.

There is an E-mail that's going around saying that this same thing happened to another gentleman in Texas. I heard about it on another forum I post at

I just received this email from a friend. He is a well respected, hard working Texan/American:

"BRIAN, JUST HAD 2 ATF OFFICERS LEAVE MY HOUSE WANTING TO SEARCH MY GUN SAFE AND TAKE DOWN SERIAL NUMBERS DUE TO THE FACT I HAVE PURCHASED A LOT OF GUNS LATELY. NICE GUYS AND YOU KNOW I AM A STRONG SUPPORTER OF LAW ENFORCEMENT BUT APPARENTLY THE NEW ADMINISTRATION IS SENDING ATF OFFICERS TO TEXAS TO CURTAIL GUN PURCHASES THINKING THAT THERE A BUNCH OF FOLKS HERE IN TEXAS SUPPLYING THE SORRY, NO GOOD, LOW LIFE DRUG LORDS OF MEXICO. THESE OFFICERS CONDUCTED THEIR SELVES FIRST CLASS BUT I DENIED THEM TO LOOK AT MY WEAPONS. I DID NOT THINK I WOULD LIVE TO SEE THIS DAY COME BUT HERE IT IS. THE TWO OFFICERS WERE FROM COLORADO AND NEW YORK, HERE TO HELP OUT TEXAS ATF. NOTHING AGAINST THE OFFICERS BUT MY OPINION IS THAT THIS IS AN OBAMA POLITICAL MOVEMENT. A STARTLING DAY FOR ME AND MY AMERICAN AND CONSTITUTIONAL BELIEFS. JUST THOUGHT I WOULD SHARE THAT INFO WITH YOU. -REGARDS "

No jackboots, no warrants, no strong arm tactics, just a polite inquiry as to the location of the firearms purchased. although that's not any of their business. IMHO they have the SN from the pistols, if they come across them in 'ol Mexico then come back and see me, till then I'll stand behind the 4th and the 5th

 

[DHJenkins]

I'm not really sure what I would do in this situation.

I believe in "innocent until proven guilty", but I think I'd rather have the BATFE tick me off their "possible straw buyer/smuggler" list and move on to the next person.

Besides, it might be nice to know someone who can fast track a form 4 one day...

 

[scndactive]

My thread at the other board I post on was closed because the mods and some members do not believe me. I'm hoping that dose not happen here, so here is a scan of the business card I was given by one of the agents

I'm not trying to start a fire I just thought gun owners should know about this.

I could have swore the guy said North Carolina, but I guess not.

Take it or leave it. believe me or don't.

 

[Blackbeard]

Personally, I wouldn't mind showing them the guns, but I wouldn't let them in without a warrant. I'd be happy to meet them in the back yard so they can look at the serial numbers.

 

[GunsNLipstick]

Thank you for sending the business card. Your thread on the other board was reopened.

 

[sanerkeki]

So what happened at the end of the visit?

 

[NotPbFree]

If I had filled out forms that stated I was purchasing a weapon or weapons for my own use, what is the problem showing properly credentialed batf agents that I did indeed still own them? After all, they already know I HAD them. They are also verifying someone did not purchase in your name using a stolen ID.

One other thought, if agents can't verify folks aren't straw buyers, won't those unverified purchases go into the "possibly suspect" category and make the case for the Anti-gunners?

It does sound like the BATF is going through the motions down in TX to prove one way or another where the Mexicans are getting weapons.

NO WAY would I hire an attorney over this. I would rather deal with the BATF....

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

"If I had filled out forms that stated I was purchasing a weapon or weapons for my own use, what is the problem showing properly credentialed batf agents that I did indeed still own them? After all, they already know I HAD them. They are also verifying someone did not purchase in your name using a stolen ID."

Here is the basic problem. They are not investigating a specific crime. They have no knowledge that the guns in question are anywhere but in the hands of the legal owners. They are wasting valuable time and government resources "fishing" for a vague objective. It is virtually impossible to track "possible" firearm infractions this way. Want to bet that they spend thousand of hours (hundreds of thousands of dollars worth) and do NOT prosecute even one person for gun running? Nor will they ever admit that they wasted that much time and resource. They have yet to be accountable for hopeless investigations. (Any one remember the door knocking they did looking for a "possible" match up on a silenced Makarov, allegedly used to kill a judge or district attorney in the NW (Washington or Oregon, I forget which)? They canvassed the entire country, tracking Makarov barrels from Federal Ordnance records. Barrels sold to many at gun shows with no further records (none required by law). Nobody is talking about that one anymore.....

 

[Rockwell1]

The only reason the ATF shows up on your doorstep is because they are seeking evidence that a crime has been committed To put it another way they think they might have a good reason to put you in jail, by it's very nature this is an adversarial relationship from the start. Knowing that, you have every right to protect yourself.

ATF agents(nor any other police agency) are not required to be honest with you about why they're contacting you. If they truly are there just to verify that you still own the guns that doesn't mean they won't jump on some other violation that you were totally unaware of. Again, you have every right to protect yourself.

Why allow goverment inspection into your personal life? What do you think might be the F troop's reaction had the OP allowed them to follow him to one of his ( PURE SPECULATION HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE) multiple gunsafes located in his dedicated gun/ survival equipment room surrmounted by a Gasden flag?

Or to be more realistic what if they notice your copy of "The Federalist Papers" or "Unintended Consequenses" or, God forbid, "The Turner Diaries"? Welcome to the watch list.

Bottom line, it is always in your best interests to control (as much as possible) every official interaction you have with any police agency.

The 4th & 5th amendments were written primarily to protect the innocent from unwarranted prosecution.

The Founders wrote them with every expectation that you would avail yourself of their protection.

 

[Jim K]

I suspect it was not due to the dealer filing a multiple purchase form but to the dealer NOT filing the form. When one name came up three times in a week and no form was filed, they want to know if you really bought the guns or if the dealer is putting your name on the books for guns sold to someone else, or if someone else is using your ID.

AFAIK, they are going after dealers who are playing fast and loose with the rules, not after individual purchasers.

P.S. BATFE told the truth about those gun traces; it was the president who lied. What else is new?

Jim