Contacted by BATFE today!!
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jackdanson
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Perfectly fine, thank you. You see though, they have a valid reason to be at my house, unlike the ATF, whom had no reason whatsoever to be at the OP house. Furthermore the agency doesn't have any reason to exist other than to supress our rights.
Do I really need to post all of the instances in the past 40 years that the ATF has overstepped it's boundaries resulting in the deaths or imprisonment of people who were doing nothing wrong at all?
Once someone says they will have to speak to their lawyer that is all there is to it. If you have arrested them you cannot question them any further legally. If you are there just rooting around hoping to find some kind of crime then you have been told no and your job is done till you have some kind of legal documentation demanding they comply. You have no bluff.
Ed Ames
Member
That bears repeating.
The way our criminal justice system works is that law enforcement gathers evidence and builds a theory of how that evidence could prove how a crime was committed. The theory will say that one or more people committed the crime. The justice system (in abstract) presents that theory, along with corroborating evidence, to a judge (and sometimes jury).
The more evidence the justice system (from LEO to prosecutor) has to choose from, the more likely they will be able to assemble evidence in such a way that it looks like a crime was committed. That appearance, when it is presented well, leads to convictions.
Note that no crime is necessary, only evidence and a theory. Now, I'm not trying to argue that most convictions are wrongful. The people who have researched the subject say the wrongful conviction rate is somewhere between 1% and 3%. That means between 97% and 99% of convictions are valid.
The numbers are that high for several reasons. The obvious reason is that ~32% of people charged with a crime in the USA are found innocent. The more important reason is that criminal investigations are normally triggered by victim reports of a crime (or some clear evidence such as a dead body). The investigative catalyst affects the shape of the investigation, limiting theories to those involving the crime reported. Investigators are unlikely to build a theory that the evidence they've collected proves you are part of a Mexican arms trafficking operation if they are trying to prove that you are a bank robber.
However, in this case, there was no crime. The BATFE agents were not knocking on the doors of someone suspected of committing a crime they knew had occurred. They were knocking on the doors of someone that, by all evidence, is a law abiding citizen. The person they were questioning had passed a background check just a few days earlier in fact.
When investigators investigate without a crime they are freed from the requirement that their theory prove something that actually happened. That is vastly liberating. Given enough facts a competent investigator can put together a plausible theory that a crime was committed. No promises about what crime but they can put together a convincing pattern of facts to prove something happened.
That's why anyone who argues they have "nothing to hide" is simply displaying ignorance of how our criminal justice system works.
ETA: I am not saying, by the way, that those investigators are working in bad faith. They may honestly believe that the crimes they theorize happened were in fact committed. They may honestly believe that they are making the world a better place. Misguided isn't the same as evil -- that's why it's often more dangerous.
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Deanimator
Member
Talking to the police without a lawyer is like performing brain surgery on yourself.
That first "oops" can leave you not just unable to fix things, but unable to even know you've screwed up.
Say the wrong thing and the situation just gets worse exponentially with every additional word you say.
If you don't know what your rights are, how can you tell if they're being violated?
Be humble enough to admit that you don't know EVERYTHING and that a lawyer knows the law better than you do.
That first "oops" can leave you not just unable to fix things, but unable to even know you've screwed up.
Say the wrong thing and the situation just gets worse exponentially with every additional word you say.
If you don't know what your rights are, how can you tell if they're being violated?
Be humble enough to admit that you don't know EVERYTHING and that a lawyer knows the law better than you do.
At which point a judge will say, "this is all you got? he bought more than one gun and you want a search warrant? this is crap, get the hell out of my office and leave that guy alone."
or, er, that's what should happen.
compliance through intimidation is just stupid. what do you think happens when the SA goes back to the office and says to his boss "nope, no problem there - the guys on the up and up" vs. "well, he has the guns in question, but when looking in his safe, i noticed that he had a really short looking rifle."
boom! now you're talking real money to defend yourself when the ATF comes a'knocking. And when it turns out that the rifle bbl in question was 16", but the agent just thought it looked small? he's probably gotten a bonus for sniffing our the evil doers amongst us, the government has spent a bunch of our money screwing up your life, and you've spent a bunch of your money proving that you didn't do anything wrong in the first place.
all of which could have been handled by "i'm sorry, that's my personal business. i'd be happy to speak with you with my attorney present if you have a search warrant."
you are a fool if you invite any government entity into your private business.
mljdeckard
Member
Ed and Dean sum it up. To come into your home, the police need either a warrant, exigency, or PERMISSION. If they don't have one of these, they have no business in your home. The conduct interviews TO TRY TO GET EVIDENCE AGAINST ANYONE THEY CAN. If they show up with no reason to come in, what does it hurt to ask? If you say no, they close the file. Period. The only reason they want to get your permission is to find evidence against either you or someone else to KEEP THE FILE OPEN.
So you let them in. Come look at my humble but tasteful gun collection.
"WOW, is that a Yugo SKS?"
"Yep."
"Did you modify it yourself or buy it from a guy at a gun show?"
"Oh, I'm a hobbyist, not a gunsmith, but I do pretty much all of my own work."
"Interesting. On this muzzle brake, I can't clearly see it indicated that it was made in the USA. This brings doubt as to whether or not this weapon is in compliance with section 922r. You have told me that you did the modification yourself, you didn't buy it from someone else who had already done it, so YOU are responsible."
"It's a Tapco brake that came with the kit. It's smudged, look right...."
"I already looked. I think we need a look at the rest of your firearms, records, and all related material." (Pulls out cell phone and dials the on-call judge.)
Far-fetched? I give it 50/50. With the current political climate and agency-wide guidance, THEY ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS. It MAY get tossed on appeal. IT MAY NOT. That is NOT what I save my money for. You will spend ALL of it, even it all goes away.
So you let them in. Come look at my humble but tasteful gun collection.
"WOW, is that a Yugo SKS?"
"Yep."
"Did you modify it yourself or buy it from a guy at a gun show?"
"Oh, I'm a hobbyist, not a gunsmith, but I do pretty much all of my own work."
"Interesting. On this muzzle brake, I can't clearly see it indicated that it was made in the USA. This brings doubt as to whether or not this weapon is in compliance with section 922r. You have told me that you did the modification yourself, you didn't buy it from someone else who had already done it, so YOU are responsible."
"It's a Tapco brake that came with the kit. It's smudged, look right...."
"I already looked. I think we need a look at the rest of your firearms, records, and all related material." (Pulls out cell phone and dials the on-call judge.)
Far-fetched? I give it 50/50. With the current political climate and agency-wide guidance, THEY ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS. It MAY get tossed on appeal. IT MAY NOT. That is NOT what I save my money for. You will spend ALL of it, even it all goes away.
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very true
if you mis-state some facts in response to a question from the federal agents
no matter how "innocent" the mis-statement was...
you have now committed a federal crime - by lying to a federal agent...does not matter if it was intentional or simply a slip of memory...
just ask Marion Jones who served 6 months in the big big house...
http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/newsreleases/articles/080111newyork.htm
she made an intentional lie but that alone was what gave her a federal offense.
suppose the feds ask you while you are showing them the guns - how much ammo have you bought in the last month?
and you say X amount.
Then they find out you bought X+100 rounds you forget you picked up at the range for plinking. Well, welcome to your federal crime...
if you mis-state some facts in response to a question from the federal agents
no matter how "innocent" the mis-statement was...
you have now committed a federal crime - by lying to a federal agent...does not matter if it was intentional or simply a slip of memory...
just ask Marion Jones who served 6 months in the big big house...
http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/newsreleases/articles/080111newyork.htm
she made an intentional lie but that alone was what gave her a federal offense.
suppose the feds ask you while you are showing them the guns - how much ammo have you bought in the last month?
and you say X amount.
Then they find out you bought X+100 rounds you forget you picked up at the range for plinking. Well, welcome to your federal crime...
mljdeckard
Member
Talked to an old friend of mine who I hunted with as a kid, lives close to the UT/AZ border. He told me that three of his neighborhood teenagers just got nailed by the AZ police (some county office) for POACHING when they were out in the desert, with firearms in their truck, no evidence of any killing of anything, because they didn't have AZ small game licenses.
I said, "I don't buy it, there had to me more to the story than that. No cop can get away with writing a ticket for poaching just because someone has a gun."
He said; "I helped them get a lawyer, and he advised them to pay the fine and walk away. Apparently there has been a big enough problem with poaching out there in the desert, that right now judges are giving the cop every benefit of every doubt. I'm staying out of there, and I'm advising everyone I know to do the same."
I said, "I don't buy it, there had to me more to the story than that. No cop can get away with writing a ticket for poaching just because someone has a gun."
He said; "I helped them get a lawyer, and he advised them to pay the fine and walk away. Apparently there has been a big enough problem with poaching out there in the desert, that right now judges are giving the cop every benefit of every doubt. I'm staying out of there, and I'm advising everyone I know to do the same."
maskedman504
Member
Two of my friends were fishing behind one of their mother's home and were approached by a Game Warden (or equivalent) on a boat that issued them citations for not having fishing licenses. My one friend mailed the ticket and money in; the other waited until one day before it was due to send it in. He did not overnight it it. About three weeks later, he got pulled over for speeding and was arrested; he had a warrant out for not paying the ticket. He told me the Sheriff's working in booking at the jail all found it immensley humorous that we was arrested for not paying a fishing ticket- my buddy didn't find it funny at all! 
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
This sure has wandered away from the OP's encounter.
It seems to be fact that if you buy three handguns in less than five days, the feds get notified. Okay, no big deal. That's old hat stuff.
What folks don't seem to know is that the southern states bordering Mexico are seeing a large increase in checking on gun purchases and in checking people going into Mexico. I'd guess they're reviewing the fairly-recent 4473s all across these states.
I went to Ojinaga, across from Presidio, Texas, today. Customs and BATFE now have a checkpoint set up to question folks who are on their way across the border. This is relatively new, but definitely has been publicized. Basically, the want to know if you have guns and have more than $10,000 in cash. And, this trip, the guy asked where we'd come from and where in Mexico were we going.
Anyhow, the BATFE visit to the OP is right in line with the present administration's policy on guns'n'drugs'Mexico--as expected after the SecState blather during her visit Down South.
So, "Yes, I have them. Here they are," and the BATFE guys are done and gone and life goes on.
As far as, "Is all this BS worthwhile?" I dunno. I've seen video of sniffer dogs in the back of pickups, checking. It is reported that a few guns have been found at the San Diego-Tijuana crossing. Were I going to take guns or money to Mexico, I wouldn't drive across in daylight at a formal crossing; I'd walk across at night, way away from town. (Okay, use my canoe; the Rio Grande is running pretty good, right now.)
Maybe a multiple purchase in a short time is some sort of "profile". I don't know. Checking up on such, however, seems in line with all the other anti-something War On Whatzit stuff that the feds are doing.
It seems to be fact that if you buy three handguns in less than five days, the feds get notified. Okay, no big deal. That's old hat stuff.
What folks don't seem to know is that the southern states bordering Mexico are seeing a large increase in checking on gun purchases and in checking people going into Mexico. I'd guess they're reviewing the fairly-recent 4473s all across these states.
I went to Ojinaga, across from Presidio, Texas, today. Customs and BATFE now have a checkpoint set up to question folks who are on their way across the border. This is relatively new, but definitely has been publicized. Basically, the want to know if you have guns and have more than $10,000 in cash. And, this trip, the guy asked where we'd come from and where in Mexico were we going.
Anyhow, the BATFE visit to the OP is right in line with the present administration's policy on guns'n'drugs'Mexico--as expected after the SecState blather during her visit Down South.
So, "Yes, I have them. Here they are," and the BATFE guys are done and gone and life goes on.
As far as, "Is all this BS worthwhile?" I dunno. I've seen video of sniffer dogs in the back of pickups, checking. It is reported that a few guns have been found at the San Diego-Tijuana crossing. Were I going to take guns or money to Mexico, I wouldn't drive across in daylight at a formal crossing; I'd walk across at night, way away from town. (Okay, use my canoe; the Rio Grande is running pretty good, right now.)
Maybe a multiple purchase in a short time is some sort of "profile". I don't know. Checking up on such, however, seems in line with all the other anti-something War On Whatzit stuff that the feds are doing.
leadcounsel
member
Exactly how is complying with the FEDS tracking down firearms through backdoor registration 'helpful' to anyone but the anti-gun crowd that supports registration. Whether you commited a crime or didn't, they can point to the helpfulness of the records.
And I agree, as an attorney and Soldier sworn to defend the US Constitution with my life, that the 4th and 5th Amendments to the Bill of Rights against unlawful searches and seizures and self incrimination are viewed with suspicion by the public at large but they are CRITICAL for freedom to survive. You should NEVER be viewed with suspicion or bullied into forfeiting your rights.
Besides, a lot of people unknowingly commit crimes every day because of the obscurity of the laws, and some carry severe penalties. For instance, maybe you are required to have your gun unloaded, locked, disassembled, or maybe one of your private transfer guns was stolen, or maybe you aren't allowed hollowpoints or high capacity mags, or maybe you are unknowingly harboring an illegal breed of dog or your dogs rabies shots aren't up to date, or the agents see a set of brass knuckles on your office desk and these are illegal, or maybe your addition to your house isn't up to code... And the point about being tricked into answering incorrectly, or accidently answering untruthfully, cannot be overstated. When did you buy X gun? How much did you pay? Did you check to see if he was a felon? What if they want to take all of your guns in for testing because they think some were used in crimes. Will you comply? Why invite trouble into your life because you want to comply with the authorities.
I advocate being a law abiding citizen, but often the laws are nearly impossible to follow because they are confusing and illogical; everything from blade length to barrel length, to personal property and pets. VERY confusing! And the penalties are severe in most places. Heck in Colorado the kill your pit bull, regardless of it's demeanor, and fine you $1,000! I was always worried because my cattledog often was confused as a pit bull.
The point is, cooperation is NOT your friend.
And I agree, as an attorney and Soldier sworn to defend the US Constitution with my life, that the 4th and 5th Amendments to the Bill of Rights against unlawful searches and seizures and self incrimination are viewed with suspicion by the public at large but they are CRITICAL for freedom to survive. You should NEVER be viewed with suspicion or bullied into forfeiting your rights.
Besides, a lot of people unknowingly commit crimes every day because of the obscurity of the laws, and some carry severe penalties. For instance, maybe you are required to have your gun unloaded, locked, disassembled, or maybe one of your private transfer guns was stolen, or maybe you aren't allowed hollowpoints or high capacity mags, or maybe you are unknowingly harboring an illegal breed of dog or your dogs rabies shots aren't up to date, or the agents see a set of brass knuckles on your office desk and these are illegal, or maybe your addition to your house isn't up to code... And the point about being tricked into answering incorrectly, or accidently answering untruthfully, cannot be overstated. When did you buy X gun? How much did you pay? Did you check to see if he was a felon? What if they want to take all of your guns in for testing because they think some were used in crimes. Will you comply? Why invite trouble into your life because you want to comply with the authorities.
I advocate being a law abiding citizen, but often the laws are nearly impossible to follow because they are confusing and illogical; everything from blade length to barrel length, to personal property and pets. VERY confusing! And the penalties are severe in most places. Heck in Colorado the kill your pit bull, regardless of it's demeanor, and fine you $1,000! I was always worried because my cattledog often was confused as a pit bull.
The point is, cooperation is NOT your friend.
Ed Ames
Member
What in this thread leads you to believe folks don't know that?
9x23
Member
Th..th..th..th..that's all folks!
leadcounsel -
Wel, there's the crux of the matter. You may not know what the reasons behind their questions are, but they do.
The authorities are permitted to lie to you, However, they can't offer you non-prosecution or lieniency for your cooperation unless autorized by the state attorney, etc. - even then a judge is not bound by it.
You may not lie to them - EVER!
Why would you want to chance it at all? Can you be so positive that you didn't realize you may have inadvertantly done something wrong? Hardly!.....9x23
leadcounsel -
Wel, there's the crux of the matter. You may not know what the reasons behind their questions are, but they do.
The authorities are permitted to lie to you, However, they can't offer you non-prosecution or lieniency for your cooperation unless autorized by the state attorney, etc. - even then a judge is not bound by it.
You may not lie to them - EVER!
Why would you want to chance it at all? Can you be so positive that you didn't realize you may have inadvertantly done something wrong? Hardly!.....9x23
bunch of tin foil hat wearers in here....after that post by a tinfoil hat fashionista claiming he knew someone at NSA who told him the inside scoop on the gov't wiretap program, you have to really comb through the b.s. with these conspiracy theory postings about the gov't.
sanerkeki
Member
Just got visited by the Maytag repair man and he wanted to check on my washer connection. I told him I will have to call my repair man to make sure what are my rights in this situation.
people paranoia is the worst sickness, and why worry about something no one has control over. Thousand of people are visited each day and it is just how it is.
people paranoia is the worst sickness, and why worry about something no one has control over. Thousand of people are visited each day and it is just how it is.
JohnBT
Member
"you have to really comb through the b.s."
But it's not b.s. if they're really out to get you.
I think I need to spend more time looking in my rearview mirror.
John
But it's not b.s. if they're really out to get you.
I think I need to spend more time looking in my rearview mirror.
John
Big Daddy Grim
Member
Wow did that in Idaho never got a call or a knock on my door. Maybe it's my three big dogs or my sunny disposition that made them not come say hi. Chain store closin and I think I bought 12 guns over a 5 day period.
Ed Ames
Member
It is really hard to call it a "tinfoil hat" situation when federal agents knock on your door. I know you were trying to be mockingly dismissive but surely you can see the difference between thinking unknown agents are trying to control or monitor you through unknown means and saying, "two people, dressed like _____ and driving a ______, came to my door asking questions about a recent purchase."
Speaking of seeing the difference...surely you can see the difference between a repair person you asked to come to your residence and a law enforcement officer coming to your door unasked?
Again, I understand the mocking dismissal thing and if it makes you comfortable, hey, far be it from me to disturb something that makes you think you are safe....but when mocking something that makes you uncomfortable turns to refusing to admit there is a hazard you have a problem.
Speaking of seeing the difference...surely you can see the difference between a repair person you asked to come to your residence and a law enforcement officer coming to your door unasked?
Again, I understand the mocking dismissal thing and if it makes you comfortable, hey, far be it from me to disturb something that makes you think you are safe....but when mocking something that makes you uncomfortable turns to refusing to admit there is a hazard you have a problem.
if they are going after the dealers, then you are still correct to 'lawyer up' and said lawyer will get them to give you written immunity, then you show them the guns.
If BATF balks at giving you immunity, then YOU are the true target, not the dealer
Those of you wanting ATFE to show up with a warrant for the guns keep in mind a warrant is for evidence of a crime. If they show up with a warrant you need to call a lawyer and your guns will be seized if they are listed on the warrant. Your lawyer may have to meet you at the lockup.
Some have said they would go through your gun safe, house, etc . You don't have to let them get there. Just show them the guns they already know you bought.
Some have responded "let them get a subpeona, that's their job". a subpeona will state what is to be produced, where, and when. It's not at your leisure. So figure you have to take a day off from work, travel to wherever they require you to go to, and pay your lawyer at least $1000 (plus his or her travel expenses). You may recoup 55 cents a mile for driving there. You've spent and done all this for something that could have been settled on your front porch. But you've exercised your rights at what cost? It's easy to say get a lawyer and make them work for the info.
A moderator noted this was in line with the administration's policy on guns being smuggled to Mexico. It's not like guns haven't been smuggled to Mexico for a long time already.
If ATFE visits 1000 multiple purchasers and they are shown all the guns they will divert to other endeavors more likely to result in criminal cases.
If 1000 people lawyer up and demand subpeonas, BATFE reports to the administration they were unable to check on the guns without massive expenditure of manpower and effort.
Who in the current administration said something like "we have to take every opportunity to exploit a crisis?". The administration (including the Secretary of State, AG, and Congress) are just looking for things to make a crisis and invent some new cockamamie gun laws (the ATFE agents were probably not kidding).
Exercising your rights can be costly.
if they are going after the dealers
It is the dealer's responsibility to file the multiple purchase form not yours. Immunity should not be brought up as immunity means you did break the law but there is a bigger fish to fry .
Some have said they would go through your gun safe, house, etc . You don't have to let them get there. Just show them the guns they already know you bought.
Some have responded "let them get a subpeona, that's their job". a subpeona will state what is to be produced, where, and when. It's not at your leisure. So figure you have to take a day off from work, travel to wherever they require you to go to, and pay your lawyer at least $1000 (plus his or her travel expenses). You may recoup 55 cents a mile for driving there. You've spent and done all this for something that could have been settled on your front porch. But you've exercised your rights at what cost? It's easy to say get a lawyer and make them work for the info.
A moderator noted this was in line with the administration's policy on guns being smuggled to Mexico. It's not like guns haven't been smuggled to Mexico for a long time already.
If ATFE visits 1000 multiple purchasers and they are shown all the guns they will divert to other endeavors more likely to result in criminal cases.
If 1000 people lawyer up and demand subpeonas, BATFE reports to the administration they were unable to check on the guns without massive expenditure of manpower and effort.
Who in the current administration said something like "we have to take every opportunity to exploit a crisis?". The administration (including the Secretary of State, AG, and Congress) are just looking for things to make a crisis and invent some new cockamamie gun laws (the ATFE agents were probably not kidding).
Exercising your rights can be costly.
if they are going after the dealers
It is the dealer's responsibility to file the multiple purchase form not yours. Immunity should not be brought up as immunity means you did break the law but there is a bigger fish to fry .
kingpin008
Member
Fixed it for ya.
kingpin, I'm not saying don't exercise your rights but I would guess that many members of this forum can't peel off a grand and take a day off from work. There are times when a lawyer is needed and i don't think is one of them unless you're already doing something wrong. They know you bought the guns, have the serial numbers, and if the conversation takes a curve from the issue they presented then you may need a lawyer.
And there's always those people out there looking for a crisis.
And there's always those people out there looking for a crisis.
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