Does anybody make a .45ACP load in 230gr. at about 1050fps?
- Thread starter WonderNine
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Gun Runners Alaska
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High Performance .45acp Ammo-
Hello, just for trivias sake may I mention that the FBI once used a 230 hardball load manufactured by Super-Vel that chronographed an actual 1005fps from several 5" 1911s in testing.
BTW, you young bucks ought to realize that Wil Terry is the load development engineer for Corbon. Need I type that HE knows his way around performance ammunition?
Hello, just for trivias sake may I mention that the FBI once used a 230 hardball load manufactured by Super-Vel that chronographed an actual 1005fps from several 5" 1911s in testing.
BTW, you young bucks ought to realize that Wil Terry is the load development engineer for Corbon. Need I type that HE knows his way around performance ammunition?
230 at 1050??? hmmm I would go with a 10mm..
The corbon load for the 230 goes what 925-950 fps?? that should be enough for anyone in a regular .45
If you have to go with a bigger hammer and dont want to step up to the 10mm go with the .45super
Is the .45winmag still being loaded?? It did about 1050 or better..right? or am I sniffing to much glue?
the above thoughts are my own and are not to be interpreted as being endorsed by Azrael's Custom Leather and House of Chicken
The corbon load for the 230 goes what 925-950 fps?? that should be enough for anyone in a regular .45
If you have to go with a bigger hammer and dont want to step up to the 10mm go with the .45super
Is the .45winmag still being loaded?? It did about 1050 or better..right? or am I sniffing to much glue?
the above thoughts are my own and are not to be interpreted as being endorsed by Azrael's Custom Leather and House of Chicken
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
.45 +P+P+P
Pressures and Buffers and Springs...Oh My!
Let's not forget that increasing pressures enough to increase velocity 25% would be well ABOVE a 25% increase in pressure, which is a proof-level loading. It normally takes a 10% increase in pressure to realize a 5% increase in velocity. That means that your old 1911 would be absorbing pressures and thrust forces in .357 Magnum territory...a neighborhood that it was never intended to visit, not with the recoil impulse generated by a 230-grain bullet. 130 grains is pushing it, and the 10mm/200/1200 is stressing key areas of the gun at about 3 times the rate of the Hardball-spec load. The 1911 is over-engineered for that loading, but not for
a steady diet of a 50% overload.
The potential for damage isn't in the frame and slide impact sufraces. It's
not in the barrel link and slidestop pin either. Your main concern is the locking lugs on the barrel and in the slide. The thrust faces are where the
metal meets the metal.
Your locking lugs need to be at 100% engagement and all bearing evenly.
Good steel and heat treatment in the slide and barrel lugs/recesses too.
If you don't have this, the locking lugs will shear off pretty quickly. If one
is bearing most of the brunt, it will fail, and the others will follow suit pretty quickly in a sort of "Domino Effect."
Yes...it's important in the 10mm too...and even the .38 Super. The pistol
was designed to stand up to the .45 ACP STANDARD pressures. That the
gun will take a 50% overload of Bullseye or Unique without doing the
Fragmentation Shuffle, doesn't mean that it will take it very many times.
It won't blow up, but it won't endure for very long, either...and not even a
40-pound recoil spring will make any difference.
Remember:
(Amended to fit the question)
The pressures required to accelerate a 230-grain bullet to 1,000 fps
in 3.8 inches of rifling are more than sufficient to blow your eyeballs through the back of your head.
Just my nickel's worth...
Tuner
Pressures and Buffers and Springs...Oh My!
Let's not forget that increasing pressures enough to increase velocity 25% would be well ABOVE a 25% increase in pressure, which is a proof-level loading. It normally takes a 10% increase in pressure to realize a 5% increase in velocity. That means that your old 1911 would be absorbing pressures and thrust forces in .357 Magnum territory...a neighborhood that it was never intended to visit, not with the recoil impulse generated by a 230-grain bullet. 130 grains is pushing it, and the 10mm/200/1200 is stressing key areas of the gun at about 3 times the rate of the Hardball-spec load. The 1911 is over-engineered for that loading, but not for
a steady diet of a 50% overload.
The potential for damage isn't in the frame and slide impact sufraces. It's
not in the barrel link and slidestop pin either. Your main concern is the locking lugs on the barrel and in the slide. The thrust faces are where the
metal meets the metal.
Your locking lugs need to be at 100% engagement and all bearing evenly.
Good steel and heat treatment in the slide and barrel lugs/recesses too.
If you don't have this, the locking lugs will shear off pretty quickly. If one
is bearing most of the brunt, it will fail, and the others will follow suit pretty quickly in a sort of "Domino Effect."
Yes...it's important in the 10mm too...and even the .38 Super. The pistol
was designed to stand up to the .45 ACP STANDARD pressures. That the
gun will take a 50% overload of Bullseye or Unique without doing the
Fragmentation Shuffle, doesn't mean that it will take it very many times.
It won't blow up, but it won't endure for very long, either...and not even a
40-pound recoil spring will make any difference.
Remember:
(Amended to fit the question)
The pressures required to accelerate a 230-grain bullet to 1,000 fps
in 3.8 inches of rifling are more than sufficient to blow your eyeballs through the back of your head.
Just my nickel's worth...
Tuner
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
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- 4,925
By the way, Winchester Ranger-T RA45TP 230gr +P is 990 ft/sec from a 5" barrel. That's probably as close as you'll get.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Parting Shot
Sean said:
By the way, Winchester Ranger-T RA45TP 230gr +P is 990 ft/sec from a 5" barrel. That's probably as close as you'll get.
Bingo! The advice with a K-frame Smith & Wesson once was to practice
with .38s and carry .357s. There was a very good reason for that.
Even the L and N frames will shoot loose given enough full-pressure ammo,
and a M-57 will stand up to 210/1250 fps much better than a M-29 and
240/1250 fps. About twice as long, as it turns out...Ask me how I know
OH! The fine revolvers that I've shot apart...Wish I had'em
back.
Cheers!
Tuner
Sean said:
By the way, Winchester Ranger-T RA45TP 230gr +P is 990 ft/sec from a 5" barrel. That's probably as close as you'll get.
Bingo! The advice with a K-frame Smith & Wesson once was to practice
with .38s and carry .357s. There was a very good reason for that.
Even the L and N frames will shoot loose given enough full-pressure ammo,
and a M-57 will stand up to 210/1250 fps much better than a M-29 and
240/1250 fps. About twice as long, as it turns out...Ask me how I know
OH! The fine revolvers that I've shot apart...Wish I had'emback.
Cheers!
Tuner
natedog
Member
.45 Super and .45 SCM...I know the USP 45 can fire the .45 Super without modification, but can it fire the .45 Short Cased Magnum without modification, too? Which is more powerful?
WonderNine
member
In the 2002 Winchester LEO catalog the specs say 950fps.
Vern Humphrey
Member
There's a simple solution to the problem. Buy some Starline .45 Super brass. This is identical to .45 ACP brass, but has a thicker web (head).
The key to hot loads in the M1911 (and some other pistols) is to undertand that the throat (the rounded out back end of the chamber which forms part of the "ramp") is the weak spot. The case wall is not supported there, and too much pressure will blow the case out. The thicker base of the .45 Super comes up past that point, so you have no thin case wall there, just solid brass.
Buy a 28-lb Wolff recoil spring (the correspoinding firing pin return spring comes in the same package, and MUST be used with the heavier recoil spring.) If your gun will function reliably with a buffer, install one.
Now you can load your .45 to rival a .41 Magnum, and it will still shoot ordinary full-charge .45 ACP loads.
But be careful -- do NOT fire one of these loads in a .45 with the standard 16 lb recoil spring and DEFINITELY do not make a mistake and load an ordinary .45 ACP case to these levels.
The key to hot loads in the M1911 (and some other pistols) is to undertand that the throat (the rounded out back end of the chamber which forms part of the "ramp") is the weak spot. The case wall is not supported there, and too much pressure will blow the case out. The thicker base of the .45 Super comes up past that point, so you have no thin case wall there, just solid brass.
Buy a 28-lb Wolff recoil spring (the correspoinding firing pin return spring comes in the same package, and MUST be used with the heavier recoil spring.) If your gun will function reliably with a buffer, install one.
Now you can load your .45 to rival a .41 Magnum, and it will still shoot ordinary full-charge .45 ACP loads.
But be careful -- do NOT fire one of these loads in a .45 with the standard 16 lb recoil spring and DEFINITELY do not make a mistake and load an ordinary .45 ACP case to these levels.
Prove that it doesn't. To my knowledge, which is more limited than I like to admit, the only statistics that have been published have been with 9 mm FMJ by the NYPD. I don't believe I've ever seen any statistical data on the .45 acp FMJ, one way or the other.
So I guess we're stuck with history, personal experience, war stories and anecdotal evidence.
Regards,
Happyguy
Preacherman
Member
If you want really hot performance out of the 1911 platform in .45 caliber, IMHO there's one safe way to go - fit a .460 Rowland top end (see here for details). The kit includes a compensator, stronger springs, etc. As I posted last year, 1,300+ fps with 230gr. bullets is routinely achieved. However, the recoil is interesting... definitely up in the Magnum class. I regard this as a hunting round rather than a SD load.
ThreadKiller
Member
Since when isn't 230@900FPS enough?
Tim
Tim
cratz2
Member
Yeah... that's one of the funny things about internet forums. One guy with a proven background in the field can make a near universally known statement, then someone that has probably never seen a gunshot wound, has probably never done load development and has probably never done much penetration or chrono work comes along with a flip remark such as 'PROVE IT!' and thinks that everyone will now think that he's a big man instead of... what we know he has just proven himself to be.
No offense, Blues.
On topic, is there a reason the +P Rangers won't fill the bill? Another thing to keep in mind is that if 'most rounds' are just barely subsonic, a couple might sneak through that aren't... A modern 230 Gr HP going close to 1,000 fps is gonna hurt whatever soft tissue it comes in contact with.
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
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- 4,925
I quoted the 2004 Winchester LEO catalog.
http://winchester.com/lawenforcement/pdf/LE2004_ProductGuide.pdf
BluesBear
member
No offense taken cratz2.
One the really funny things about internet forums is that someone can disagree with someone and then be accused of being an inpompetent nimcompoop by someone who knows nothing of the person he is attempting to personally insult. Just or the record... it's damn near impossible to insult me.
I have the utmost resprct for Wil Terry. I do know who he is. But I am allowed to once or twice in my lifetime to disagree with him. That doesn't mean I don't respect him and his opinions, merely that I disagreed with that one statement. Even though I may disagree with him, I will never insult him.
As for me proving myself... What I will prove myself to be is a gentleman because I will not enter in your little urinals at 20 paces game. Since you don't have any idea about who I am, my background or what I have seen and participated in in my lifetime.
A thinly veiled ad hominum attack says more about your character than mine sir.
One the really funny things about internet forums is that someone can disagree with someone and then be accused of being an inpompetent nimcompoop by someone who knows nothing of the person he is attempting to personally insult. Just or the record... it's damn near impossible to insult me.
I have the utmost resprct for Wil Terry. I do know who he is. But I am allowed to once or twice in my lifetime to disagree with him. That doesn't mean I don't respect him and his opinions, merely that I disagreed with that one statement. Even though I may disagree with him, I will never insult him.
As for me proving myself... What I will prove myself to be is a gentleman because I will not enter in your little urinals at 20 paces game. Since you don't have any idea about who I am, my background or what I have seen and participated in in my lifetime.
A thinly veiled ad hominum attack says more about your character than mine sir.
clubsoda22
member
The advertised velocity for winchester ranger talon 230gr .45+P is 980fps....that's getting pretty close.
Frohickey
Member
Sounds like a weak 45Super load to me.
45Super is a trademark of Ace Custom Guns and is not out in the public domain. To use this, you are supposed to pay Ace Custom Guns something. Technically, its a 45ACP external dimension with thicker web area/case head, so the cases are not identical. It also uses a large primer.
45SMC is Triton's attempt to circumvent the 45Super trademark. Its a 45ACP external dimension with thicker web area/case head, plus it uses a small primer.
If Ace Custom Guns just allows the 45Super to get into the public domain, you might have more manufacturers go and try to qualify their pistols with 45Super loads. And who knows, the market for 45Super might actually go up from where its at now, which is at the bottom basement.
45Super is a trademark of Ace Custom Guns and is not out in the public domain. To use this, you are supposed to pay Ace Custom Guns something. Technically, its a 45ACP external dimension with thicker web area/case head, so the cases are not identical. It also uses a large primer.
45SMC is Triton's attempt to circumvent the 45Super trademark. Its a 45ACP external dimension with thicker web area/case head, plus it uses a small primer.
If Ace Custom Guns just allows the 45Super to get into the public domain, you might have more manufacturers go and try to qualify their pistols with 45Super loads. And who knows, the market for 45Super might actually go up from where its at now, which is at the bottom basement.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
A Couple More Points
First....BluesBear...You're a class act.
Second...At handgun velocities, terminal effect is detremined more by
bullet placement than impact energy until the velocity gets above the
1300-1350 fps range, at which point the bullet STARTS to create a large
enough temporary wound channel to become a factor. Below that
point, the target really won't be able to tell a lot of difference between
850 fps and a thousand. In other words, the immediate terminal effect
will be so close as to be a non-issue, even if the bullet expands.
While it's true that expansion has some effect, at velocities below
a certain level, the effect still hasn't gotten into enough hydrostatic
shock to be a real player. A bullet that heavy is still going to overpenetrate in most cases...even expanded...and energy will be
wasted, even though its slower passage/dwell time dumped more
energy into the target.
When I was busy with my part-time smithing business, I found myself
engaged in conversations with several local doctors from two large
area hospitals. These guys were dead into guns and shooting, and
one of the surgeons who did regular duty at the trauma center even
had a 4-lane indooor range in his basement. He saw dozens of gunshot
wounds a year, and he often spoke of what he had experienced.
One of the things that he flatly stated was that he could see zero difference in tissue destruction between a hollowpoint bullet and a
soft point or even a FMJ, except for a few that resulted from the
.357/125 bullet...He said that at first, he didn't know why the difference
until he started talking to the cops about the shootings. Since most of
them were personal friends of his, they disclosed to him the weapons
and calibers that had been used in the shootings, when that information
was known. He understood how destructive the .357 load was 10 years
before Marshall and Sanow began compiling data.
The conclusions? Added velocity helps to insure expansion and nothing more. Expansion below a certain level marginally increases the energy dump in the target, but mainly increases the chances of hitting something vital. Below a certain velocity level, blood loss and resulting blood pressure
drop is what shuts an attacker down, besides the psychological effect
of being shot. It bothers some and doesn't phase others. Some will
drop like a stone when hit in the foot by a .22 short, and some will keep coming and/or shooting after being shot through the lungs with a .44 Magnum. He told the story of one guy who had been shot twice with
00 Buckshot...and the cops had to restrain him long enough to get him
knocked out and into surgery. Blood tests showed zero drug influence.
Food for thinkin'...
Tuner
First....BluesBear...You're a class act.
Second...At handgun velocities, terminal effect is detremined more by
bullet placement than impact energy until the velocity gets above the
1300-1350 fps range, at which point the bullet STARTS to create a large
enough temporary wound channel to become a factor. Below that
point, the target really won't be able to tell a lot of difference between
850 fps and a thousand. In other words, the immediate terminal effect
will be so close as to be a non-issue, even if the bullet expands.
While it's true that expansion has some effect, at velocities below
a certain level, the effect still hasn't gotten into enough hydrostatic
shock to be a real player. A bullet that heavy is still going to overpenetrate in most cases...even expanded...and energy will be
wasted, even though its slower passage/dwell time dumped more
energy into the target.
When I was busy with my part-time smithing business, I found myself
engaged in conversations with several local doctors from two large
area hospitals. These guys were dead into guns and shooting, and
one of the surgeons who did regular duty at the trauma center even
had a 4-lane indooor range in his basement. He saw dozens of gunshot
wounds a year, and he often spoke of what he had experienced.
One of the things that he flatly stated was that he could see zero difference in tissue destruction between a hollowpoint bullet and a
soft point or even a FMJ, except for a few that resulted from the
.357/125 bullet...He said that at first, he didn't know why the difference
until he started talking to the cops about the shootings. Since most of
them were personal friends of his, they disclosed to him the weapons
and calibers that had been used in the shootings, when that information
was known. He understood how destructive the .357 load was 10 years
before Marshall and Sanow began compiling data.
The conclusions? Added velocity helps to insure expansion and nothing more. Expansion below a certain level marginally increases the energy dump in the target, but mainly increases the chances of hitting something vital. Below a certain velocity level, blood loss and resulting blood pressure
drop is what shuts an attacker down, besides the psychological effect
of being shot. It bothers some and doesn't phase others. Some will
drop like a stone when hit in the foot by a .22 short, and some will keep coming and/or shooting after being shot through the lungs with a .44 Magnum. He told the story of one guy who had been shot twice with
00 Buckshot...and the cops had to restrain him long enough to get him
knocked out and into surgery. Blood tests showed zero drug influence.
Food for thinkin'...
Tuner
Kilroy
Member
Glock 21 used to Test Fire +P+ brass jacket
Stout recoil in the Glock 21, firing 230 grain bonded brass jacket hollow points at around 1300 fps. Bullets went about 23 inches in gellatin and turned inside out during their travel.
Stout recoil in the Glock 21, firing 230 grain bonded brass jacket hollow points at around 1300 fps. Bullets went about 23 inches in gellatin and turned inside out during their travel.
another okie
Member
IF you have a strong, modern gun, you can load the .45 Colt up pretty hot if a revolver will work for you. There's lots of room in there for more powder. IF, IF, IF, you have a strong, modern gun.
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
WheelMan
Member
Wondernine:
What is the sub-sonic restriction for?
What is the sub-sonic restriction for?
VG
Member
Sir, the Army Medical Corps has published one or more books called "The Wound Book" or the like. It contains pictures of U.S. and enemy soldiers hit by different weaponry, and the medical circumstances that resulted.
In a very hard-core unit, few officers could stomache more than a couple of pages of this treatise, which was available in the Operations Center of my old Army unit, probably to prove that no one is quite as tough as he thinks he is.
My primary conclusion is that if you get hit by just about any centerfire pistol cartridge, you're going to die or wind up seriously injured in a large pool of blood - 5-6' feet in diameter.
My second conclusion is that people who doubt the "stopping power" of 9mmP are uninformed. This round killed or seriously wounded many soldiers in WWII. None were improved, that's for sure.
Finally, it did not appear that .45 ACP routinely goes all the way through human beings. They did sometimes, blowing a large hole out the back of the enemy soldier unlucky enough to be shot. But depending on when, where, and how, the bullet seemed most often to stay in the unlucky b@st@rd who got shot. He would still often die, surrounded by an immense amount of blood and gore that will make most normal people vomit at the sight.
All this pistol rounds deliver a small fraction of the energy of just about any rifle, but still kill or seriously wound more often than not. Not directly responsive to the question initially asked in this thread, but there you have it as one bit of anecdotal evidence.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
.45 FMJ RN
I've never seen any statistical data on the .45 acp FMJ, one way or the other.
-----------------------
I don't have any statistical data, or pictures or wound trauma analysis...
but I do have some first-hand experience of the up close and personal
variety, and I have to agree with VG's assessment. To wit: If you are
shot in the torso with a .45 hardball round, it's very likely that you're gonna die...and pretty quickly. I can't see how a 200 fps increase in
impact velocity is going to make you any deader. An expanded hollowpoint
might well let more blood leak out on the gound, but probably not much more.
Likewise for the 9mm hardball. Anybody who turns their nose up at either one as "ineffective" has never seen it happen. I carry hardball without reservation. If I do my part, it'll take care of business just fine, and there's no issue about the "Killer Hollowpoint Bullets" to have to address in the courtroom during the aftermath. Why hand the prosecutor or civil litigator
any more ammunition than he already has?
"Well, your honor...I just wanted a box of ammo and it was the cheapest thing in the store." (And it is...)
Cheers!
Tuner
I've never seen any statistical data on the .45 acp FMJ, one way or the other.
-----------------------
I don't have any statistical data, or pictures or wound trauma analysis...
but I do have some first-hand experience of the up close and personal
variety, and I have to agree with VG's assessment. To wit: If you are
shot in the torso with a .45 hardball round, it's very likely that you're gonna die...and pretty quickly. I can't see how a 200 fps increase in
impact velocity is going to make you any deader. An expanded hollowpoint
might well let more blood leak out on the gound, but probably not much more.
Likewise for the 9mm hardball. Anybody who turns their nose up at either one as "ineffective" has never seen it happen. I carry hardball without reservation. If I do my part, it'll take care of business just fine, and there's no issue about the "Killer Hollowpoint Bullets" to have to address in the courtroom during the aftermath. Why hand the prosecutor or civil litigator
any more ammunition than he already has?
"Well, your honor...I just wanted a box of ammo and it was the cheapest thing in the store." (And it is...)
Cheers!
Tuner
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