Let's be honest for a bit...

[Bubba613]

I disagree with 8 seconds, at east as a general rule. Moving deliberately, I can do a mag change in under 5 seconds. Now, I am obviously not factoring in stress, position, injuries or whatever else, and maybe that's where I am not understanding this point.

We're not talking about doing a mag change. We are talking about diagnosing a mag failure, retrieving the new mag from who knows where, dumping the defective mag and inserting the new one. All of this is not in a drill situation where you are prepped to do exactly that but in a situation where you didnt expect to pull your gun to begin with.
And that is 8 seconds with good training. You might as well train to change the extractor on the pistol.

 

[Bubba613]

I won't disagree, but I'd still carry an extra mag (especially for a 1911) and at least die trying to reload, rather than just throwing my hands up and say "you win".

Because there's a functional difference between those things.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Bubba613 in response to "I disagree with 8 seconds, at east as a general rule. Moving deliberately, I can do a mag change in under 5 seconds".: We're not talking about doing a mag change. We are talking about diagnosing a mag failure, retrieving the new mag from who knows where, dumping the defective mag and inserting the new one. All of this is not in a drill situation where you are prepped to do exactly that but in a situation where you didnt expect to pull your gun to begin with.

If you choose to diagnose first. Personal decision.

Of course, one should carry the magazine on the belt where it could be accessed almost instantly.

And that is 8 seconds with good training. You might as well train to change the extractor on the pistol.

I have witnessed a number of trained people who could consistently put six shots on three targets, change magazines, and put six more shots on the target, in less than four and one half seconds.

I cannot do that. It's a matter of training an practice--as is being able to draw and fire at an assailant charging from "Tueller distance" in the first place.

How many people who carry can do that?

 

[Bubba613]

Well, you could spend about 1.5 seconds doing a tap rack that will fix the problem. Or you could spend 5 seconds min changing the mag. Your call.

The magazine on the belt is accessed immediately. Unless you're wearing a jacket or sweater over it. Or unless you are wearing a heavy winter coat and gloves with multiple layers over it. In which case it will take several more seconds.

I have witnessed a man draw and shoot six rounds, reload and shoot six more rounds all on target in under 3 seconds. So what? That isn't very relevant to any of us, not only because we lack that kind of skill and time and money for practice but also because we are not prepped for it at the range when a personal protection incident is occurring.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Bubba613: Well, you could spend about 1.5 seconds doing a tap rack that will fix the problem. Or you could spend 5 seconds min changing the mag. Your call.

I know the standard drill, but almost all of the malfunctions I have experienced I required a magazine change. I'll save the time needed for the tap rack.

And I can replace a magazine in less than five seconds myself.

I have witnessed a man draw and shoot six rounds, reload and shoot six more rounds all on target in under 3 seconds. So what? That isn't very relevant to any of us, not only because we lack that kind of skill and time and money for practice....

You said it. It's just like the old joke about how to get to Carnegie Hall. Practice.

...but also because we are not prepped for it at the range when a personal protection incident is occurring.

That's an assumption.

The keys are training and practice.

The same applies to drawing and shooting at a fast-charging attacker who comes at you around the end of your SUV without warning. It isn't easy.

Personally, I doubt that I could ever change magazines in time to beat the time required in a traditional Tueller drill. I'm not sure I could even draw and fire a BUG in time.

But I sure as heck would prefer having an extra magazine than hiding with a jammed or empty firearm in a lot of other circumstances.

 

[Bubba613]

Oooh scary.
If someone really thinks it is a realistic possibility that he will find himself in abandoned buildings in East St Louis with a drug gang in pursuit he either needs mental help or ought to move (that was the actual plot of a movie whose name I dont recall). That scenario is so far removed from anything resembling reality it falls into the "fails to pass the laugh" test category.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Bubba613: Oooh scary.
If someone really thinks it is a realistic possibility that he will find himself in abandoned buildings in East St Louis with a drug gang in pursuit he either needs mental help or ought to move (that was the actual plot of a movie whose name I dont recall). That scenario is so far removed from anything resembling reality it falls into the "fails to pass the laugh" test category.

I have no idea what prompted you to come up with that strawman, but I would agree with your characterization of it.

Do you contend that, because most of us could not reload in time to stop attackers running around the end of the car, we would be well advised to dispense with an extra magazine?

Do you not see other realistic scenarios in which one might prove helpful?

Why do you suppose that most trainers recommend having one and being able to change it quickly?

By the way, I do not carry one, but I think I probably should.

I do not carry a flashlight during the daytime either, but perhaps I should; there are those who do.

Or a multi-tool. I have needed one.

 

[Saddlebag Preacher]

I just think, as a gun owner, I won't judge if one feels comfortable with no or multiple reloads. It's what YOU feel comfortable and confident with.

I can tell you from experience that MOST attackers won't instantly stop with just one or two hits. You train to STOP the threat. Just showing you are armed may be enough. It may require you running backwards whie trying to stop one or two humans on this new bath salts craze (they eat your face). A couple of loose and attacking pit bulls are a possibility. I just prefer to keep a reload if I am carring a revolver or pocket auto, sometimes I will if i have my Glock 22.

 

[Bubba613]

Do you contend that, because most of us could not reload in time to stop attackers running around the end of the car, we would be well advised to dispense with an extra magazine?

Do you not see other realistic scenarios in which one might prove helpful?

Why do you suppose that most trainers recommend having one and being able to change it quickly?

By the way, I do not carry one, but I think I probably should.

I do not carry a flashlight during the daytime either, but perhaps I should; there are those who do.

Or a multi-tool. I have needed one.

Yes, I would advise that. Same reason I dont advise people to keep a spare extractor and tools on their person at all times. You never know, after all.
I am not interested in what "most trainers" advise. I am interested in what the actual needs of a private citizen in everyday life are. Many trainers train for tac reloads as well. I dont see much value in that either.
I never carried a flashlight but ended up buying a Surefire Executive on sale. I find that I use it a lot in my business although I didnt really miss it when I didnt have one. Same with a small pocket knife. I could do without it but it makes some things easier.
If I had unlimited resources of time and money I'd love to practice mag changes to get to 2 seconds or less (I actually carry a revolver most of the time). But I don't. None of us does. I'd rather practice fast draws and accurate hits on target, something I am much more likely to use.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Saddlebag Preacher: It's what YOU feel comfortable and confident with.

If and only if YOU have an informed basis for how you "feel."

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Bubba613: Yes, I would advise that [dispensing with an extra magazine].

Alrighty, then.

Same reason I dont advise people to keep a spare extractor and tools on their person at all times. You never know, after all.

Pardon me when I characterize that reasoning as just plain silly.

I am not interested in what "most trainers" advise. I am interested in what the actual needs of a private citizen in everyday life are.

So, people need to judge whether they believe your opinion to be more valid than those of most trainers--or not.

I don't carry an extra magazine, but I think that the preponderance of expert opinion is that to do so is not a bad idea.

If I had unlimited resources of time and money I'd love to practice mag changes to get to 2 seconds or less (I actually carry a revolver most of the time). But I don't. None of us does.

It doesn't cost anything, and it takes very little time if you do it at home.

I'd rather practice fast draws and accurate hits on target, something I am much more likely to use.

I do agree with that.

 

[Certaindeaf]

It's funny how some guys will show off their massive stockpile of ammo and brag about how many tons of lead they send downrange per year but when it comes to pocketing a little bit of ammo for that trip to the hardware store, that's just crazy!

 

[Ankeny]

I have witnessed a man draw and shoot six rounds, reload and shoot six more rounds all on target in under 3 seconds.

All I can say is

 

[David E]

The idea of carrying an extra mag in case the first one fails is absurd.

That's just one reason of several. Anyone that doesn't know or understand the various reasons shouldn't be so adamantly against it.

It will take the rest of someone's life to diagnose a mag failure and change the mag.

So you admit the first mag CAN fail, but then claim its always better/faster to fix the failed magazine than to replace it.....what instructor did you learn this from?

Yeah yeah you've seen your buddy do it at the range in 3 seconds. That isn't real life. Real life is 8 seconds minimum.

If it's their first day carrying the brand new gun they bought that morning, then maybe. Otherwise, what protocol did you use to arrive at such an absurd, yet absolute, time frame?

 

[Nushif]

I really don't think arguing with someone who equates a mag change with an extractor swap is a productive or even fun endeavor.

 

[Kleanbore]

115 posts in 5 pages.....