long story, how I about got attacked

[mark345]

I've been looking around trying to decide what forum to tell my story in to get advice. Hopefully this will do.

In the story below you'll see quite a few things I did wrong, and how the whole situation could have been avoided if I had used my head and handled things differently, and clearly that should always be Plan-A: be smart, avoid dangerous and volatile situations. The thing is, I've always acted like that was the whole story, but I'm thinking more lately that Plan-A isn't always going to cut it, and I need to be ready with a Plan-B where I can stand my ground with a weapon if need be.

I was happy to see the sticky at the top of this forum about taking lethal force seriously since I'm considering CCW but have my doubts about what good it would have done in the below scenario. Not that the below situation is something I intend to repeat, but it's what got me thinking about the need for self defense.


So to start with here's the story of a domestic violence incident I was involved in recently.

Most of my friends are sane reasonable people, there's really just one exception, and that girl is like some kind of bad-decision-making machine.

She has a roommate/boyfriend who is okay for a roommate but is a pretty lousy boyfriend. One morning I got a hysterical phone call from her saying she found evidence of cheating on his computer, and she wanted me to come over to keep her from doing anything stupid, the idea being that she was so mad and generally crazy that she would be taking scissors to all his clothes and burning things in a bonfire in the front yard without someone to stop her. That may be an exageration, but she is indeed prone to loosing control.

So I went to her house thinking I would calm her down and get her to move his stuff into the garage in a reasonable manner rather than literally throwing it all there and breaking everything. I thought that was taking a step in the right direction, but really I was just reducing the size of the step being taken, still in the wrong direction. And in particular I helped her move his things into the garage.

I intended to leave after that, but she kept insisting I stay till he got home. I should mention I'm acquanted with the guy, but don't know him well. In retrospect it's hard to say why I agreed to stick around, but I guess I was concerned about possible violence and thought being there on the periphery as a witness would deter him from doing anything too illegal.

I know now that the violence in their relationship is of the property-damage variety, not personal-damage. He wasn't actually going to hit her, even as mad as he got. But I didn't know that at the time.

So he got home, I was still there, he tried to come in (I forgot to mention, she had already had the door locks changed). At first he thought he was going to sweet-talk his way out of this, then he started to realize she was serious and he started getting mad. He came around to the back door which was glass and broke it in and they started going at it yelling at each other. I called the police as soon as he kicked in the door.

At some point between that time and the police arival he was looking for somewhere else to direct his anger, so he turned on me "did you help move my stuff?". Being the direct and apparently dumb guy I am I said yes, and he lunged at me. I backed away with my hands up in a submissive posture. He stopped short of tackling/hitting me, and I suspect that was only because he's been in jail before and he's been on probation before, so he had just enough self-control to stop himself because he didn't want to go back to any of that. Really he just wanted to scare me, but I didn't know that. I went outside after that and waited for the police.

The rest of the story isn't relevant to the discussion about self defense, but the police pointed out what I should have known about there being an eviction process that has to be followed, and how you can't just kick a guy out instantly even if he did cheat and it's her house. And now a few weeks later the two of them have gotten back together.. very sad.

So getting back to the self-defense aspects, clearly I screwed up big time on Plan-A. I shouldn't have helped move his stuff, I shouldn't have been there when he got home, and if I really wanted to help there are better things I could have done, like call off the locksmith and tell my friend to stay at my place a couple nights until she could calm down enough to do things the right way for example. And in general getting anywhere near somebody else's domestic dispute is a bad idea.

But now that I'm thinking of CCW, what good would that have done here? It's true that if I was standing in the corner of the room holding a 9mm he probably wouldn't have lunged at me, but even though a gun is a strong deterrant, you can't be sure it'll work for that, and bluffing with a gun seems like a really bad idea. If I'm holding it, I'd better be ready to use it. Especially since this guy was 6-2 or 6-3 and well over 200# and I'm 5-9 or 5-10 and 150# (and I took a month of judo long ago and what I found is that I suck at hand to hand combat).

A week or two ago I did sign up for the beginner gun class at a local range and it turns out I shoot pretty well.

On the one hand, given what I know in hindsight that he was just posturing because he was mad and wasn't actually going to do anything, it seems like it would have been a major overreaction to have shot him in a situation like that. But on the other hand why should I have to passively stand there and hope for the best in what would have been a severe beating if he had been madder and chosen to go that route?

This also got me thinking about the little Taser C2.

I don't have a specific list of questions, but I welcome any comments anybody has related to all the above. Thanks.

- Mark

 

[highorder]

Women will be the death of Men.

I wouldn't have gone anywhere near that place.

Welcome to THR. Lots to learn here.

 

[Jeff White]

So getting back to the self-defense aspects, clearly I screwed up big time on Plan-A. I shouldn't have helped move his stuff, I shouldn't have been there when he got home, and if I really wanted to help there are better things I could have done, like call off the locksmith and tell my friend to stay at my place a couple nights until she could calm down enough to do things the right way for example. And in general getting anywhere near somebody else's domestic dispute is a bad idea.

Sounds like you know what you should have done. Swallowing down the impulse to be the knight in shining armor and fix things can be hard sometimes, but that is the best you could have done right there.

At some point between that time and the police arrival he was looking for somewhere else to direct his anger, so he turned on me "did you help move my stuff?". Being the direct and apparently dumb guy I am I said yes, and he lunged at me.

Did you fear that you were in danger of having great bodily harm or worse inflicted on you at that point? If you didn't, it wouldn't be the time to introduce deadly force into the situation.

He stopped short of tackling/hitting me,

What was your plan if he didn't stop short? Did you have anywhere to retreat to? If you had been armed would you have used your weapon? You mentioned a size disparity between the two of you. But what kind of witness would the girlfriend have made? I have had a woman scream; "Arrest the SOB I want him out of my house I never want to see him again!!" and then attack me and the other officer when we hooked the live in boyfriend up. Before the law was passed here that eliminated the ability to bond out immediately in cases of domestic violence I have had the victim waiting at the jail with bond money so that her attacker didn't have to spend the night in jail. There is a good chance you might have had to fight both of them if it came to a fight. Plan A is the best option. Plan B will probably get very problematic.

 

[chieftain]

Think about what happens when you, bottom line, take a gun into HIS home and shoot a guy in HIS home, because you threw HIS stuff out. Would you buy that story, as a self defense case? I see you as at least culpable enough to wind up meeting your new boy friend, Bubba for at least a few years if not more.

IF I found you in my house, even if my wife/girl friend, was pissed at me, and threw my stuff in the garage. You would probably have a problem with me too. If, BIG IF, I maintained my cool and called the police on you instead. As they told you that in your jurisdiction there are legal ways to evict someone. What you did do, may be considered a criminal act.

Depends on the prosocuter and often the LEO's in your jurisdiction, but they may introduce you to your new boy friend, Bubba for a long time too. Maybe a life time.

Let domestic problems stay domestic. Call for assistance, and stay away. IF it is your mother, sister, brother etc... that's bad enough, but you can't fix it. You can make it worse.

And as you learned, the underlying problem with domestic violence is the victim usually CHOOSES to put themselves back in harmsway. YOU CAN'T FIX IT! And having a weapon just puts YOU at greater risk. AVOID, Avoid, avoid.

Remember, domestic violence, is the largest catagory of crime that gets LEO's hurt too.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Not a good idea to get involved.

Back when I was married, some dweeb actually had the temerity to call me and suggest my ex and I separate. Probably should have taken his advice. But instead I told him if my ex or I ever heard from him again I'd chop his thumbs off. We never heard from him again.

I've helped friends move out of places and relationships, but I would never move someone else out against their will. Their judgment probably isn't on its A game at that moment, and they just might kill you. Really.

 

[Deanimator]

I like to keep my life simple.

Avoid stupid people. They're not worth the bother and can get you into a lot of trouble for zero benefit to you.

I'd rather be alone than with stupid people.

 

[JWarren]

I've been through a nasty divorce.

I can see this through HIS point of view.

Let's see...

Self-described "crazy" girl decides that he is cheating. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. And I don't know the circumstances. Neither do you.

But you have essentially passed judgement on him and have taken an advocacy position for her.

Now...

THEY live together-- meaning HE lives there.

YOU have come in to HIS home at her request and started moving HIS things.


I'm sorry. I feel for you in that you probably thought that you were doing the right thing or saving a "Damsel in Distress." However, you essentially thrust yourself into a situation where you did not belong, and were in NO position to make an informed "judgement." Nor are you in a position to judge him.

And that means keep your hands off his stuff!!!


You want to know how I handled my divorce?

****I**** got a new place to live.

Years later, I had a live-in fiance that dropped a deal-breaker issue on us.

You want to know how I handled that?


****I**** got a new place to live.


If you want to take actions to change the relationship or direction of your life, the FIRST step is to remove YOURSELF from it. Too many people think that they can get their panties in a wad and remove OTHERS from their situation.

Had this been a story of you coming over to help HER move HER things out, I would have a COMPLETELY different view of things.

she wanted me to come over to keep her from doing anything stupid

Telling statement.

that girl is like some kind of bad-decision-making machine.

Clearly.

And in particular I helped her move his things into the garage.

Should have moved HER stuff into the garage.

I intended to leave after that, but she kept insisting I stay till he got home.

Just so we are clear, SHE wanted YOU to be her CCW.

She was expecting a bad scene and you to "save" her. If she was in SUCH fear, she should have gotten a moving van and broke up with him via a text message.

You, however, gave in to the admirable trait of wanting to protect her. But really... had you really considered what you would do if you HAD to protect her? Had you thought this out? Based upon this, I don't think you had:

I backed away with my hands up in a submissive posture.

I'd say that you'd be better off really considering the positions that you let yourself get put in, and strive to provide better advice to those that you care about before going the CCW route.

This was completely avoidable, and moreover, I feel that this girl (whether she was initially justified or not) put you in a morally compromised position against someone who had NO recourse other than dealing with the situaiton thrust upon him by you and said crazy girl.


-- John

 

[FullEffect1911]

I'd say that you'd be better off really considering the positions that you let yourself get put in, and strive to provide better advice to those that you care about before going the CCW route.

I agree with this a emphatically, one of the cornerstones of concealed carry is situational awareness. And although you clearly had good intentions I'll bet there was a voice in your head saying "this isn't a good place to be in" well before anything really all that bad was going on.

To answer your question about whether a CCW would have helped you or not, I would say not in the situation as described. If he came at you with deadly intention instead of just posturing then it may have... but I would say that even then, you were in his house and it would have been a tough sell on justification.

You can't save stupid from stupid and those two seemed to have in spades. Trust your gut, and be safe.

 

[MisterMike]

Most of my friends are sane reasonable people, there's really just one exception, and that girl is like some kind of bad-decision-making machine.

Speaking as a geezer, a dad, and a long time member of the law enforcement community, let me first offer you some very serious advice, not wholly related to weapons: You need to eliminate stupid people from your life (by "stupid," I mean anyone whose judgment is lacking . . . like your female friend).

It's hard to do. A sympathetic shoulder is fine . . . to a point. Suggesting positive steps--counseling, quitting drugs, escaping destructive relationships--is fine . . . to a point. That point is passed when you are asked to do something at the stupid person's behest, or when you take on any semblance of responsibility for getting them out of the doo-doo into which they have stepped. Your intentions were noble, but I can't tell you how many times I've seen well-intentioned friends get dragged into life-changing scenarios because they didn't know when to step away.

I'm thinking more lately that Plan-A isn't always going to cut it, and I need to be ready with a Plan-B where I can stand my ground with a weapon if need be.

A second point, and one that is equally important: If you ever find yourself invited into a situation where you are contemplating the possible need for a weapon, decline the invitation. You're not a cop, and all the good intentions in the world won't help if things go south, resulting in death or injury.

As far as tactics once this all started to unfold, I won't go there. I don't fancy myself a martial artist or a superhero, but I don't fear too many things in life. My point is this: The lesson to be learned is not how you handled yourself once you got to your friend's apartment, or after things turned ugly. The lesson is that you should never have been there under those circumstances.

You should never, ever use a weapon to "stand your ground," as you put it. The laws in the U.S. are generally pretty clear (though the specifics vary from state to state). Generally, you can resort to the threat or use of deadly force only when necessary to protect yourself or another from serious bodily harm or death, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. "Standing your ground" doesn't hack it, and can lead to a murder conviction. If you decide to arm yourself, you should first educate yourself about the law that governs the use of deadly force.

 

[mbt2001]

Rule of Acquisition # 285

"No good deed ever goes unpunished."

 

[Yo Mama]

If in this case you used your CCW, you'd be screwed.

I echo what many said already, and just emphasize the not hanging around idiots. I value my family and guns more than going to jail for someone else.

If you look on this forum, you'll find many times where fights or confruntations are avoided. The only way you'll be justified to use force is if you didn't put yourself into a situation on purpose.

Glad you joined the forum. We like to discuss these things. It helps others learn with you. Please read and soak in the events that others have gone through, and hopefully this will be the last time you have to go through this.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Welcome to THR, mark345.

I've been looking around trying to decide what forum to tell my story in to get advice. Hopefully this will do. We'll do our best to be helpful.

I'm considering CCW It would help to know what state you're in. Some idea of your 'age and stage' in life would help too, if you really do want a serious attempt at supplying useful advice. At least some of us here are of the opinion that buying a gun and carrying it around no more makes one armed than buying a piano makes one a musician.

clearly that should always be Plan-A: be smart, avoid dangerous and volatile situations. In that direction lies a good deal of wisdom... and a great deal of safety as well.

The thing is, I've always acted like that was the whole story, but I'm thinking more lately that Plan-A isn't always going to cut it, and I need to be ready with a Plan-B where I can stand my ground with a weapon if need be. And much of what remains of wisdom and safety can be found in this direction. The difficult thing is, we don't always get to choose what happens to us. We aren't always in control of what other people decide to do.

Plans are good. At least, good plans are good. Problem is, plans have a way of breaking down on contact with reality. The old military axiom says: "No plan survives first contact with the enemy intact." Plan A as you have stated it is a good one, as far as it goes.

Plan B, you might want to think about a little more. There needs to be a bit more room between "not going looking for trouble" and "shooting anyone who offers trouble" IMHO.

I often point to a short essay by trainer John Farnam when discussing situations like this. If you want to read it, you can find it at http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2003/19Mar03.html . I hope you'll find it useful.

Please note the line that says "Disengagement, separation, and exit... ." IMHO that's a good bit of what needs to be in the space between "not going looking for trouble" and "shooting anyone who offers trouble." The more things you can learn that offer you options in that space, the better off you will be in the long run- the more likely to avoid trouble, the more likely to avoid having to seek recourse to a weapon and having to justify such recourse after the fact.

The legal complexities of armed self defense in your jurisdiction need to become at least somewhat familiar to you. You need to know what both black-letter law and case law have to say about self defense where you live. Problem One is the gunfight, Problem Two is the legal aftermath. The best way not to have Problem Two is not to have Problem One in the first place. Of course, sometimes the application of lethal force in self defense is unavoidable.

You will find some excellent material in regard to the basic legal principles in the justification of the use of deadly force at http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm . I'd suggest you get familiar with this material. Once you do, then find yourself a good criminal defense attorney in your jurisdiction and have a sit-down with him or her. Don't know who to call? Check with a few of the bail bonds offices in your area and ask them what defense attorney they'd call if they had trouble. Most of the time, a first conference with an attorney is free, but even if you have to pay for it, it's apt to be well worth your time. If paying for one hour of legal consultation now saves you having to pay for dozens or hundreds of hours of legal time later, you'll be a lot better off.

Well, you asked for comments, not books, so I'll shut up now... . Hope it's helpful,

lpl

 

[Stirling XD]

You didn't get hurt, killed or go to jail. You didn't hurt or kill anyone else. If you had pulled a gun, the previous statements likely wouldn't be true. Having a gun would have only made things worse for you and possibly everyone else.

I have to comend you for having the desire to a friend. But despite what they tell you, some people don't want help. At least not the kind of help they really need.

I'm glad you came out of this situation OK. Spend some time on this forum. It will help you learn to how to make better decisions that will keep you safe and out of trouble. The previous posts have a lot of wisdom in them.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Well, you seem to be a good Man and I can see where you are coming from.

My problem is with the Female.

I remember some unstable people in our lives that are no longer a part of our lives. They are same as a IED or something waiting to go off and cause alot of damage. My suggestion is to do the same, remove this female from your life.

All the other Posters presented good words which I wont get into here.

I would not have done anything other than to tell the female to call the police and deal with it with thier help on her own. You aint getting into another Mancave moving his stuff no way. That makes me a intruder and in my state Intruders get shot no matter who else is in the home.

It is obvious to me that the Boyfriend had no idea the seriousness of the situation until he discovered that he could not gain access. No wonder the Female wanted another man to hide behind.

Back to calling the LEO's I guess.

I leave it here.

 

[crebralfix]

Only from a fighting perspective:

Remember how fast he moved in on you...it was very, very quickly. Now introduce a weapon of some sort on your belt...knife or gun.

Do you think you would have succeeded in deploying and using that weapon before he struck you? What would have happened if you only had the weapon partially deployed? Do you think the fight dynamic would have changed to a fight over the weapon? Even worse...what would have happened if he felt the weapon under your shirt when he was in contact with you?

There are specific techniques that are used for these situations. My primary experience has been with SouthNarc's ECQC course, but there are many other trainers out there who teach material in the 0-5 foot range.

Honestly assess yourself. What is your physical fitness level? Have you trained in empty hand and with knives and guns? Are you aware of the pre-assault queues?

If you're going to carry a weapon, you need to know more than the law. While that's great for the state's liability as related to a carry license, it doesn't do you much good on the street. You must be as physically fit as possible. Additionally, you must be proficient with all the weapons you carry. Don't carry it if you have not trained with it!

Finally, your mindset must be much harder. We joke about "Be polite, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet" but those words should be taken very, very seriously. They capture the essence of the defensive mindset.

 

[wyocarp]

If in this case you used your CCW, you'd be screwed.

Well, not always. This scenario played out here in Laramie a few years back and the guy shot the ex-boyfriend coming through the door and killed him with a .22.

He was NOT prosecuted!

 

[JImbothefiveth]

this guy was 6-2 or 6-3 and well over 200# and I'm 5-9 or 5-10 and 150#

I think it would take someone very good in martial arts, with him having little to no skill at all, to win a fight like that

(and I took a month of judo long ago and what I found is that I stink at hand to hand combat).

That's because you only took Judo for a month and are 5-10 and only 150 pounds. (I'm guessing the people in your Judo club were bigger) Taking Judo for a month won't make you a good fighter.

Well, not always. This scenario played out here in Laramie a few years back and the guy shot the ex-boyfriend coming through the door and killed him with a .22.

That's in Wyoming.

And also, I'm not sure it would necessarily be the right thind to do. (Unless you're in fear of your life) Imagine you go out to work, and when you get home you've been kicked ot of the house.You get in through the back door, and then someone shoots you.

 

[wyocarp]

And also, I'm not sure it would necessarily be the right thind to do. (Unless you're in fear of your life) Imagine you go out to work, and when you get home you've been kicked ot of the house.You get in through the back door, and then someone shoots you.

I didn't comment on if it was the right thing to do. But, he didn't, "get in through the back door." He broke into the house where he knew the locks were changed. He had been evicted. Not in a nice way, but in the way that it happens. He was fully aware that he wasn't wanted there.

I personally don't feel that the OP should be talking about a gun in this scenario. He is as stupid as the girl if he thought everything was going to be okay when the boyfriend came home. He put himself in harms way so that he could be seen as the knight in the eyes of the girl. Every guy in here knows he shouldn't have been there.

 

[bearmgc]

Think the suggestion that you avoid stupid people is a good one. Another suggestion is don't get sucked in to other couple's issues.

 

[rondog]

Plan A - stay away from crazy wimminz!

 

[wyocarp]

I don't think the girl was crazy at all. She was able to get another guy to come over and take the heat. Sounds pretty smart to me.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

THAT is why I have problem with that Female.

Most females I ran with or married are strong ones and able to handle themselves if need be. I cannot stand weak people who place others into jeparody.

Please, Ladies dont think that I am bashing a typical weak female. Aint nothing that a Female can do that a man cannot (For the most part anyhow). Evidently this particular female had the thinking cap on to change locks prior to this man coming home at the end of the day.

I say thank you ma'am and good BYE. Enjoy your Life.

 

[Dr. Fresh]

Let domestic problems stay domestic. Call for assistance, and stay away. IF it is your mother, sister, brother etc... that's bad enough, but you can't fix it. You can make it worse.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. There is NO way I will sit on the sidelines if someone hurts a member of my family.

 

[Jeff White]

There is NO way I will sit on the sidelines if someone hurts a member of my family.

Where does it say the boyfriend hurt anyone?

 

[mark345]

Thanks for all the replies. Yep, I have to agree with what everybody's saying, a weapon really wouldn't have been at all justified in that situation. The only correct solution was to not get into that predicament in the first place.

On that front I have an idea why things went so wrong. Generally I make my own decision in life and when I do that things work out just fine. The biggest mistakes I make tend to be when I abducate my responsibility and let somebody else lead me into things that I wouldn't be doing otherwise. Especially when the girl I'm letting make the decisions for me is someone whom I've already identified as a bad-decision-making machine.

If I had insisted on using my own intuition and reasoning instead of just blindly following along, I wouldn't have got myself into that mess. I think that's the key lesson I'm bringing home from this one.

- Mark