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problems with retail stores and laws regarding minors

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Skillet, Jul 8, 2009.

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  1. Skillet

    Skillet Member

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    so i was at sportsmans warehouse the other day, and i wanted to see this revolver. now, since i am "underaged", i had to get my dad to come look at it then give the gun to me through his hands, thus giving parental permission. so, the guy gave my dad the revolver and my dad looked at it a bit and then he let me look at it. it was not in my hands for 5 seconds and the guy took it away from me and said that we could not do that because the BATF said that even through parental permission, i could not hold this gun inside that store. and that the law went into force last summer.
    i have been to several gun shops since last summer, as well as cabela's, and as long as my dad gave me that pistol they did not have a single problem with it. so, is this guy right, or wrong.
    i felt very offended and "stomped on". i feel that as long as is reasonable, age should not be a factor when in those situations. i have seen 12 year old kids handling guns by the safety book and in perfect ways, and i have seen 40 year old guys handle a gun like it was a rag doll.
    so enlighten me please on what your opinion is on this situation. and please do answer my question.
    thanks!:banghead:
     
  2. GojuBrian

    GojuBrian Member

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    I don't know the laws for your state, but it is possible that the other stores employees aren't aware of the law. It seems unlikely the guy is just making up his own rules regarding minors.

    p.s. it's stupid
     
  3. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    You'd be surprised to find how individuals and individual retailers "interpret" the rules all out of recognition.
     
  4. AnthonyC.

    AnthonyC. Member

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    ummm, I dont see how this could be a law considering that Gander Mountain has 1,000+ guns out on racks (not behind glass) and they encourage you to pick them up and handle them....

    They are locked with a cable and trigger guard, but other than that, they are out in the open.
     
  5. COMPNOR

    COMPNOR Member

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    As people like to say, go talk to a manager, or have your dad talk to the manager, or both of you. Explain how you felt. Either it gets resolved, or it doesn't. But that seems like a good first step.
     
  6. AnthonyC.

    AnthonyC. Member

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    I would tell that manager that he better resolve this issue, or he just lost a few customers for life.....
     
  7. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    It is not illegal. Just their lack of knowledge.
     
  8. Skillet

    Skillet Member

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    anthony C, they already have lost 2 customers for life.
    i go to impact gun's store here in idaho now. they are cheap, and they know me as a customer with my dad.
     
  9. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Member

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    But, you won't see any revolvers (or semi-auto handguns) out in the open.
     
  10. raskolnikov_22

    raskolnikov_22 Member

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    Usually the customer is always right, but if it's the customer vs. running afoul of the ATF, then you better believe the customer will lose. Did a Google search and couldn't find any laws about it, but did pull up some other store's websites with similar rules.
     
  11. AnthonyC.

    AnthonyC. Member

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    You are right, mgkdrgn, but they will let anyone hold them if you ask, and none of them have locks on them.

    And I thought he was asking about all guns, not just revolvers...:scrutiny:
     
  12. youngda9

    youngda9 member

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    You're underage and you handled a weapon, I'm surprised you didn't spray the entire store with automatic fire and gun them all down.
    /sarcasm

    That is stupid, you were there with your dad, I assume gun was checked, anyone should be able to fondle with permission. Tell the manager, if you get a bad response don't return and spread the news through the interwebz if that makes ya feel better.
     
  13. Corey

    Corey Member

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    Actually, it is prohibited for a dealer to show a handgun to an underage person. The common practice is to for the dealer to show the gun to the parent and then the parent can show it to the juvenile but that is not legal per ATF as the juvenile is still in possession of a handgun. Here is the actual wording from ATF:

    Juvenile possession of a handgun on the business premises of a licensee for examination or viewing purposes is prohibited pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 922(x). Under 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), it is unlawful for a Federal firearms licensee to sell or deliver “any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age.”

    Further, 18 U.S.C. 922(x) provides that it shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile - (a) a handgun; or (b) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun. And, it shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess the same. This subsection does not apply to--

    A. a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile--

    i. in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;

    ii. with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm, except--

    I. during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded handgun in a locked container directly from the place of transfer to a place at which an activity described in clause (i) is to take place and transportation by the juvenile of that handgun, unloaded and in a locked container, directly from the place at which such an activity took place to the transferor; or

    II. with respect to ranching or farming activities as described in clause (i), a juvenile may possess and use a handgun or ammunition with the prior written approval of the juvenile's parent or legal guardian and at the direction of an adult who is not prohibited by Federal, State or local law from possessing a firearm;

    iii. the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile's possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the juvenile;

    iv. and in accordance with State and local law;

    B. a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard who possesses or is armed with a handgun in the line of duty;

    C. a transfer by inheritance of title (but not possession) of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile; or

    D. the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile taken in defense of the juvenile or other persons against an intruder into the residence of the juvenile or a residence in which the juvenile is an invited guest.

    Therefore, juvenile possession of a handgun on the business premises of a licensee for examination or viewing purposes is prohibited pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 922(x) as it does not fall within one of the enumerated exceptions.


    That said, the salesman was still a jerk.
     
  14. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    So, what do you think? Can you be employed by an FFL and sell handguns if you are <18?

    Corey, where did you get that info from?
     
  15. Corey

    Corey Member

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    I should have included the link in the original post, but here is it is:
    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/2008shotshowfaq.htm

    As for <18 working for an FFL, ATF has that exact question in their online FAQ's http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#f4

    May an employee of a licensed dealer, such as a manager or clerk, who is under 21 years of age, sell handguns and ammunition suitable for use in handguns for the licensee?

    Yes, if the employee is not a prohibited person (e.g., a felon). However, to sell handguns, a person less than 18 years of age must have the prior written consent of a parent or guardian and the written consent must be in the person’s possession at all times. Also, the parent or guardian giving the written consent may not be prohibited by law from possessing a firearm. Moreover, State law must not prohibit the juvenile from possessing the handguns or ammunition.
    [18 U.S.C. 922(x)]


    It seems strange, a juvenile cannot handle a handgun as a customer, but can as a salesman. But that is because one of the exceptions in the prohibition is if it is "in the course of employment".
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2009
  16. MMCSRET

    MMCSRET Member

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    I notice you are in Idaho. In the Idaho Falls store they have never seemed to have a problem letting youngsters look at their wares, wonder if it is self imposed in which ever store you were in.
     
  17. Avtomat Kalashnikova

    Avtomat Kalashnikova Member

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    i've been told in some stores that i can't handle guns without my parents for insurance reasons, but in my local shop, i can hold whatever i want by myself, but the owner is also a friend of my family.
     
  18. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    Thanks for the link. I wasn't arguing with you, I was really just wanting to know where it was. You know, I've been reading 18 USC 922(x) wrong all this time. I always thought it said in the course of employment in ranching activities. I never realized it was in the course of employment, <--- comma there!

    Thanks!
     
  19. Mags

    Mags Member

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    In my experience most big box stores suck but I have no problem with that. There prices are great and that is why they suck (cheap labor) can't get a steak house steak at a fast food joint now can you?
     
  20. kirklandkie

    kirklandkie Member

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    i'm not sure what the law is where you are, but i am 20 (a minor) and when i go to retail stores i don't think i am allowed to handle pistols in ct. i may be wrong in this assumption but based on what i know of ct law it seems probable. Whenever i go to a large retail store if i want to look at a pistol typically i talk shop for a few minutes to the store associate and when i ask to look at a weapon they don't even ID me because i think they figure if i know so much about them i must be of age.... eh, who knows lol
    i wouldn't knock the store for this incident, just go look up the law or as others have suggested speak with the management to find out what the story is.

    -kirk
     
  21. Officers'Wife

    Officers'Wife Member

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    In the age of a vindictive government that believes honest people need the sword of law over their heads to keep them honest, CYA is the rule of business. Don't take it personally, the guy was just trying to protect his livelihood.
     
  22. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "Further, 18 U.S.C. 922(x) provides that it shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer "

    Letting someone look at a gun is neither a sale, a delivery or a transfer. My lawyer says you need a better lawyer to write your legal opinions.

    John
     
  23. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    JohnBT,

    Yes, I would agree with that, not that my agreement with it means anything! :D
     
  24. Corey

    Corey Member

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    NavyLT, I never thought you were trying to argue, just glad for the reminder to put the link:).

    I think ATF takes the position that the dealer handing a gun to a customer for examination or viewing purposes constitutes a delivery as one of the definitions of delivery is to grant possession, custody, or control of something to another person.

    I have never heard of a dealer getting in trouble for this with ATF, but ATF does want dealers to be aware of it. As for pushing the issue with ATF, I have great respect and admiration for activists, but I myself do not have the money or the time to be a test case in court.
     
  25. ThePunisher'sArmory

    ThePunisher'sArmory Member

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    All these stupid a** rules..I mean come on his dad is right there. Let the boy/or girl look at the gun. This used to be a free country.
     
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