So much for "9mm is plenty."
- Thread starter Zerodefect
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HP all year round.
JHP don't expand in clothing anyway, the only thing clothing can do is plug up the JHP and make it act....drumroll....more like a FMJ. If JHP is the best defense round for your pistol, it's the best defense round for your pistol year round.
Good Ol' Boy
Member
One of you didn't understand my post and the other is simply wrong.
FMJ's for the cold months was meant to imply more penetration, because of more clothing.
HP's have shown to expand when hitting thick clothing, there's really no arguing that.
My statement was simply an effort to be PC, legally that is. An even better legal stance would be that FMJ's in any circumstance are less lethal, even though they are more effective in certain situations.
Opinions will undoubtedly vary...
FMJ's for the cold months was meant to imply more penetration, because of more clothing.
HP's have shown to expand when hitting thick clothing, there's really no arguing that.
My statement was simply an effort to be PC, legally that is. An even better legal stance would be that FMJ's in any circumstance are less lethal, even though they are more effective in certain situations.
Opinions will undoubtedly vary...
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Interesting spin. The suspect likely isn't dead from the 4 rounds that failed to penetrate the jacket, only from those that did or that didn't hit the jacket at all.
Hollow points do not expand in clothing. There's really no arguing that. Hollow points plug up with clothing and fail to expand sometimes, that is what that's about.
You don't need FMJ in winter, JHP don't penetrate less through clothing, if anything, they penetrate more. This is really basic stuff and you are quite misinformed.
Good Ol' Boy
Member
You and I can post links until the cows come home but we'll still be at the same stance. I should have not been so liberal as to say it's not a debatable topic.
If 100% effectiveness was the the primary goal everyone would be carrying FMJ's. And by effectiveness I mean penetration. My primary goal in a SD situation isn't to kill someone but to stop the threat. I'm not as concerned with how lethal the ammunition is but how effective it is.
Over penetration and your surroundings boils down to training. If you miss it doesn't really matter what round your shooting.
And when talking service cartridges, such as 9x19, a good jacketed hollow point is a better choice for stopping the threat.
A choice that does not expand in clothing and actually penetrates more through clothing.
Even the most gimmicky 9mm ammo in the world - if its made of copper or lead is going to go through a jacket, even that RIP G2 and Liberty ammo - the base would punch through the jacket. Even the worst 9mm hollow points ever made would punch through a Carhart jacket.
The only thing that I can think of that might not make it through a jacket might be Glaser Safety slugs or shot shell ammo - but NYPD wasn't using that.
The only thing that I can think of that might not make it through a jacket might be Glaser Safety slugs or shot shell ammo - but NYPD wasn't using that.
Baron_Null
Member
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I for one am very open to new ideas and would love to see those links.
AlfonsDeWolf
Member
This article's release is selling the public on some new ammo or "solution" coming soon to your nearest law enforcement agency
Elkins45
Member
I know when I want complete and unassailable information on firearms and ballistics I always turn to the New York Post.
Shanghai McCoy
Member
No discussion yet that NY issue Glocks use ten pound triggers. Everybody knows the higher weight keeps the bullet from leaving the barrel with as much force.
Hey, it makes as much sense as the canvas plugging up the nose - which in most tests INCREASED the ability of the round to penetrate further. We still don't know that the bullets likely hit COM and were stopped exiting the torso by the jacket on his back.
Nothing to learn here. No data. Dead citizen. The bullets stopped him.
It's another story of cops with too many bullets hitting bystanders because of volley fire tactics and no regard for the backstop. Discuss penetration all you want - NY is still hitting innocent bystanders with drive by tactics.
No mention at all if a Taser was present. If a canvas work coat has an issue, it means they don't bring it out and just start shooting until you drop.
There are other issues here and again, the story is all about the spin the department is putting on it about bullet performance. How about the performance in deciding the proper tactics to arrest the individual and safeguard those nearby? He brought a knife to a gunfight, he's not going to win.
Sounds like suicide by cop. 9mm was plenty good enough for that.
Hey, it makes as much sense as the canvas plugging up the nose - which in most tests INCREASED the ability of the round to penetrate further. We still don't know that the bullets likely hit COM and were stopped exiting the torso by the jacket on his back.
Nothing to learn here. No data. Dead citizen. The bullets stopped him.
It's another story of cops with too many bullets hitting bystanders because of volley fire tactics and no regard for the backstop. Discuss penetration all you want - NY is still hitting innocent bystanders with drive by tactics.
No mention at all if a Taser was present. If a canvas work coat has an issue, it means they don't bring it out and just start shooting until you drop.
There are other issues here and again, the story is all about the spin the department is putting on it about bullet performance. How about the performance in deciding the proper tactics to arrest the individual and safeguard those nearby? He brought a knife to a gunfight, he's not going to win.
Sounds like suicide by cop. 9mm was plenty good enough for that.
JR24
Member
I'm thinking the reason the rounds "failed to penetrate" is because the rounds, in actuality, failed to hit and NYPD needs more spin.
That or I need to start wearing carhardt more.
That or I need to start wearing carhardt more.
Mainsail
Member
A bullet that penetrates the jacket at the arm, passes through the bicep, could easily lodge in the jacket at the far side.
Too little info to say anything. Someone will know something in a week or two, but it won't be mentioned by that media outlet.
Too little info to say anything. Someone will know something in a week or two, but it won't be mentioned by that media outlet.
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ColoradoShooter77
Member
There was also the episode awhile back of a police officer shooing a perp 13 times with a 45 ACP and he was still in the fight. So much for shooting someone in the arm, then they drop like a rock.
It took a head-shot to finally stop the guy. This was in the Ayoob files awhile back.
Said officer is now carrying a 9mm with 17 round capacity.
It took a head-shot to finally stop the guy. This was in the Ayoob files awhile back.
Said officer is now carrying a 9mm with 17 round capacity.
BigJakeJ1s
Member
Because failing to expand does not magically cause a HP to penetrate as well as ball.
Unless you plan on shooting once, and stopping to figure out if you need to shoot again, it won't matter "which one is up". Virtually no handgun ammo is going to produce one-shot stops on other than an accidental basis.
Andy
ColoradoShooter77
Member
Yeah, I think he was clean.
Maybe not in scientific measurements if you're measuring both a 9mm FMJ and an non-expanded JHP in 72" of gel, but a JHP with a plogged tip, that didn't expand is easily going to penetrate 20" to 24" ( a lot of tests out there showing them going a lot farther than 24")
I don't see much of a difference in terminal ballistics between a FMJ and a JHP that failed to expand.
Officers'Wife
Member
No offense Zerodefect, but this is the New York Post... The only part I'll believe without further evidence is that there was a shooting with the police involved. I've seen too many times when their reporters haven't let a little thing like the truth get in the way of a good story.
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