W.E.G.
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What caliber for "madman?"
So much for "9mm is plenty."
- Thread starter Zerodefect
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jrmiddleton425
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Two officers fire nine rounds, making four or more hits.
The guy with the knife bled out right there.
Appears to me that there was no problem with the ammo.
The guy with the knife bled out right there.
Appears to me that there was no problem with the ammo.
45_auto
Member
jrmiddleton425 said:
Your life, your decision. I'm not going to trust my life or the lives of my loved ones to defective ammo that has a 50% failure rate in penetrating a canvas jacket.
The failures to penetrate would have made things much more "interesting" if the madman had a gun instead of a knife.
From the article:
Do you really think that is what happened, and how it happened, and that this source is definitive when it comes to firearms and ammunition performance?
Keep in mind, along with everything else, this is the paper that put two men's photos on its front cover and claimed the federal government was after them as suspects in the Boston Marathon bombing when, well, they weren't suspects.
Zerodefect
member
LOLz.
No, they'll be wrapped in 1980's newspapers, a 5 gallon bucket for a helmet, with a pistol in one hand and a stick of butter in the other, singing show tunes as loud as they can.
Is Florida. Craziest place on earth.
Gtscotty
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Ah, I believe that's called Florida Business Casual, "Florida Man"s usual attire.
I don't think this haphazard bit of reporting is going to keep me from carrying Gold Dots...
HighRoadRover
Member
NYPD officers carry the G-19, the P226 and the S&W 5946 on duty, and are authorized the G-26, the S&W 3914, and the Beretta 8000D Mini Cougar (and soon the XD-S) off duty. All are DAO with 12 lbs triggers. The bullet used is a 9mm 124-grain JHP -- which I believe is the Speer Gold Dot +P (which gets good reviews).
How could this happen? Well, NYPD has history of firing a lot of rounds, often missing the bad guy (and sometimes hitting bystanders -- hey, its a crowded city). Maybe the officers thought they were hitting the target, and he didn't go down, so they assume the bullets were "weak" -- but they were really missing him. Somebody hit him, that's for sure. Did they recover bullets imbedded in the Carhartt jacket? I dunno, but they sell them at Cabelas!
How could this happen? Well, NYPD has history of firing a lot of rounds, often missing the bad guy (and sometimes hitting bystanders -- hey, its a crowded city). Maybe the officers thought they were hitting the target, and he didn't go down, so they assume the bullets were "weak" -- but they were really missing him. Somebody hit him, that's for sure. Did they recover bullets imbedded in the Carhartt jacket? I dunno, but they sell them at Cabelas!
I suspect that when the truth comes out this initial story will be all wrong. Some tabloid reporter who has never fired a gun in his life heard some third hand excuse for why the police fired so many rounds. The bullets likely didn't penetrate his jacket because they just missed not because the fabric stopped them.
FireInCairo
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Paging chopinbloc! You're wanted at the white courtesy phone!
Or because they went through and stopped on the other side. Or because they hit some other barrier first then kept going but didn't have enough left to make it thorugh the jacket.
A standard construction 9x19 bullet fired from a duty pistol with enough velocity to cycle the slide isn't going to see 4 bullet stopped by a regular jacket. Just not going to happen
toivo
Member
Exactly. My guess is that they didn't penetrate the jacket because they didn't hit the jacket. They were misses, pure and simple.
HighRoadRover
Member
"Haven't seen the full report yet, but I suspect there's more to it than that."
-quote from email from well-known gun-writer and 9mm (although not exclusively) enthusiast. I sent him the article and mentioned he would probably hear more about this incident in the future.
It's likely we'll never know exactly what happened in the shooting, but that doesn't prevent us from knowing how 9mm ammo will perform on a clothed target.
There's no reason to guess what happens when you shoot several layers of denim with a 9mm JHP. It's a pretty routine part of gel testing ammunition.
For those who don't want to spend the time viewing one of the few hundred videos on youtube showing tests like that, I'll post a spoiler. The bullets go right through the layers of denim and penetrate another foot to a foot and a half in the gel behind it.
There's no reason to guess what happens when you shoot several layers of denim with a 9mm JHP. It's a pretty routine part of gel testing ammunition.
For those who don't want to spend the time viewing one of the few hundred videos on youtube showing tests like that, I'll post a spoiler. The bullets go right through the layers of denim and penetrate another foot to a foot and a half in the gel behind it.
DrDeFab
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FYI: TTAG Carhartt video
danez71
Member
So.... for those that won't blindly click on the link....
He shoots a Carhart jacket a bunch of different ways and folded over and wadded up to get more layers..... not bullet proof.
But that wasn't the claim.... they were saying possible defective ammo, which I still don't believe for all the reasons already posted.
Even a NAA 22lr with the 1.1" barrel went thru the jacket and probably 10" of gel at point blank range.
I'm still going to guess that it's being spun to detract why the police shot 9 rounds to stop a guy with a knife. No pepper spray... no taser?
Effort made to prevent protests?
Again, I'm not a conspiracy theory guy but this doesn't pass the straight face test.
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A knife is a deadly weapon and warrants response in kind.
Let me repeat: A knife is a deadly weapon and warrants response [a lethal force response].
I can't speak to the specific situation and what lead up to it, etc, but please do not say or repeat that crap about a knife being something police (or anybody else) should respond to with pepper spray or a taser. You absolutely do not use pepper spray on a suspect or attacker armed with an edged weapon. Not a taser either.
Big Bad Bob
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4FqEEgq9eA
This video proves to me that the jacket did not stop the rounds, the officers missed.
This video proves to me that the jacket did not stop the rounds, the officers missed.
danez71
Member
Blah blah blah.
1st, don't tell me what to do or say.
2nd, police are trained to use less than lethal force when possible/warranted.
3rd, I never advocated using pepper spray or taser.
I'm just bringing up what many protesters have been protesting about... their perception of unjustified shootings/disparity of force. And its not unheard of that things get spun to favor authority.
That's not to refute your underlying point, but to clarify mine about their perception.
I'll repeat too.... don't tell me what to say.
huntsman
Member
well worth the 9mins to watch but I'm not sure it was worth buying and destroying a new Carhartt.
And responding to a suspect with a knife warrants lethal force, not freaking pepper spray.
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