Truth in accuracy reporting (Rant)

[UnTainted]

Good rant.

People don't understand cold bore either and think it's a flyer.

Very True!

I was so excited as a teenager when I was taught about the Cold Bore issue, as well as the fouling shot issue.

After learning that, I went and sighted in my bolt (took a little over 2 hours just for a few groups) and then did a fouling shot and had a much better experience hunting.

I'm not a teenager anymore, *sigh*, but this year I did the same (after my scope got bumped in the truck and the zero got knocked around) and then waited a half an hour while shooting handguns and then shot this single shot. It's no group, so I can't measure it (unless I say all 5 went through the hole, which didn't happen) but I was happy and ready for the soon-to-be-successful hunt with this target.

100 yards, Sako 30-06.

 

[JWarren]

ONE

Don't make any kind of claim of accuracy on a 3 shot group, You're only 2/5th of the way to a useful indication of potential accuracy with a 3 shot group. Just about any rifle will luck itself into great looking 3 shot groups from time to time. Even the junkiest rifle stands chance of "missing" in the same direction thrice however this likelihood is greatly reduced with a five shot group. which leads me to no2

I agree that a 3 shot group is not the true measure of a rifle’s consistency.

But I have to ask this…

If your rifle—any time you take it out—fires three shots sub-MOA, and you can count on that accuracy from a three-shot group, should you stop counting on it to do that?

I had a Remington 700 ADL in 30-06 that would shoot very well every time I took it out. I really don’t think I EVER shot it more than 3 times in a row except when sighting in. And yet it performed exactly as I’d expect it to do when I wanted it to. It dropped deer at ranges from 35 yards to 300 yards all day long, and I never worried about its accuracy. It did that for 20 years before it was stolen in a break-in.

While I agree that a measure of the rifle’s accuracy and consistency is best based upon a 10 shot group, I’ve seen FAR too many rifles that consistently perform well for 3 shots.

It becomes this question…

What is a true measure of accuracy?

1. A rifle that you can take out and shoot three times in a 1” group hundreds of times over years, or
2. A rifle that you can shoot ten times in a 1” group 10 or 12 times?

I say neither disqualify the other.

TWO

Accuracy of your firearm cannot be claimed from ONE lucky group. You must take the good groups and average em in with the bad. In my opinion four 5 shot strings is the MINIMUM to even begin to make any serious claims.

I agree with this completely.

THREE

Understand that every rifle is it's own individual, just because the rem700 you bought shoots 3/4" groups is no garentee that the rifle that was sitting behind it on the rack will do the same.

I agree with this completely.

FOUR

Don't ever use the cliché "All day long" when making an accuracy claim, as soon as most read those words most assume guideline No2 applies

I think when this is said, it is a figure of speech meaning “When I need it to do it.”

It is a common phrase. Lighten up.

FIVE

I don't care if you use millimeters or inches, decimals or fractions for the love of god drop the measurements based on US currency. International members may not know how large a dime is and even if so depending on caliber a rifle that would shoot into a dime"all day long" would be benchrest grade. When you apply this claim to a 10/22 or an marlin336 people instantly don't believe you

So if someone posts a picture of the group and are using a dime as a reference to the size, people “instantly don’t believe you?” I’d say that is THEIR problem.

I see a great 100 group sitting next to a dime, I don’t say “That didn’t happen—there’s a dime in the picture.”

That’s just idiocy.

As for the 10/22 or Marlin336…
Well, that contradicts your own point #3:

Understand that every rifle is it's own individual, just because the rem700 you bought shoots 3/4" groups is no garentee that the rifle that was sitting behind it on the rack will do the same.

By the same token, can an individual rifle be MORE accurate than you expect it to be?

My Ruger 10/22 is one of the most accurate rifles that I’ve used. Of course, I have $700 of work done to it. But that’s also shot at 50 yards as opposed to 100 or beyond. However, the point stands.

As for using US Currency…

Perhaps it would be better to use the US dollar as a unit of measurement if there is an International audience. After all, it is the most common currency in the world. Even someone living on an island in the south Pacific that is made entirely of bat guano knows what a US dollar looks like.

But really… if you are posting on an internet forum and not in a match, does this really matter?

SIX

Learn how to measure groups properly, groups size is determined by the extreme spread minus the bullet diameter. If you don't want to do the math and your groups aren't one ragged hole simply measure distance to the edge of the farthest holes on the same side

Everyone should know how to measure groups.


In the end, this crap really doesn’t matter when you are posting on an internet forum.



-- John



EDIT: Cool... I used the phrase "all day long" in my post. I didn't realize that until just now.

 

[minutemen1776]

I agree that "all day long" is a figure of speech, but it is WAY overused on this and other shooting websites. It is also usually followed by the almost-as-overused phrase "if I do my part." I wish I had a dime (to cover my rifle groups with, of course ) for every time I've read the combination of these phrases: i.e. "My rifle will shoot dime-sized groups all day long if I do my part." With some thought, I could probably come up with a top-ten list of shooting website cliches, and these two would top the list. The only other I can think of offhand is how self-defense weapons are not "loaded" with a particular type of ammo-they are "stoked." That just sounds odd to me.

 

[gvnwst]

Thanks krochus, now i can say how great my groups are with more legitimatically Really, my most accurate rifle can shoot 1/2moa (pretty much all day long, with the correct ammo), but i am nowhere close to being able to do that....better shooter has done it though.

 

[SHvar]

99% of accuracy problems are user error.
Aside from 2 weeks now, a few of us have spent at least 1-3 days a week at the ranges nearby for a while, and firing from 100-400 rds each among 1-3 firearms each.
Even my wife who does not shoot very much at all, gets 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards with my AR (and by the way these are 20-30 shot groups, so no excuses). Keep in mind we are not taking our time shooting, spending all day waiting for the barrel to cool down, we load 20 rds, fire, and have fun. Keep in mind my AR has a 1x32 scope, basically a red dot sight.
My Ruger target rifle makes some amazing tight groups. It has a 3-12x40 Bushnell scope and makes shooting dime sized groups easy with all 4 shots it holds at 100 yards. In fact if I take my time with it, firing off of the bipod I can place 2-3 rounds through the same hole or connecting them at 100 yds.
Keep in mind these are all from whatever rounds I can buy the cheapest from the local gunshops, or order by the case. I also have compared rounds I reloaded with little to no difference in accuracy.
I never bother to officially measure the groups, or take pictures of them. Sometimes my wife tells me to take the targets home, and not to throw them away. We have a few sitting around somewhere.

 

[Rancho Relaxo]

Oh crap...

Well thanks a lot, after reading the excellent rants put forth here I decided to see just how good my most accurate factory rifle is.

This is my CZ-527 Varmint Laminate in 223. It currently wears a 6.5-20x Nikon Monarch but all my initial load testing was done with a 3-9x Leupold.

These are some of my groups, all are 5 shots. I got an average and found it to be .538 MOA. It's clear to say that my largest groups are with the 40grain bullets, and my rifle can shoot anything in the 50grain range with finesse.

Now I can no longer boast proudly on the internet about having a 1/2MOA shooter, I have to say it's a .538 MOA shooter

It's a good thing I've got a 1/4MOA bolt action 12ga. Open sights, offhand, pics are still on the memory card...

 

[ojibweindian]

I've a Weatherby that prints, on average 0.65" at 100 yards with my hunting load. The new Marlin XL7 I bought does okay; 1.67" for right now. 3-shot groups go well under an inch. Still playing with that load, though. It might be able to do better. But, for a $300 rifle that serves as a back-up to my Weatherby, I think it'll do.

 

[RP88]

I guess my modesty is a good shooting trait. I take 4-5 shot groups, and use that as a judge of the rifle and not me. My AK can probably bench-shoot better than me

 

[taliv]

beautiful scenery, rancho

 

[oregonhunter]

I guess we should all just sell are trusted freezer fillers and buy some 7.62x39's.

On a serious note the point others have made about the need for nothing greater than a 3 shot group for a hunting rifle is very true.

 

[Jerry D]

well I agree - almost ever person online claims they can shoot 1 MOA - the fact of the matter I believe most can't - unless their shooting ****ting down and have a sold front and rear rifle rest maybe. BUT I agree that so many people say their rifles are so accurate and that "they" can shoot better then their rifles.

 

[Dr.Rob]

As a long time mod at TFL and here, you hear some whoppers... but we DO occasionally get together and shoot. The armchair snipers usually don't show up.

 

[3pairs12]

Isn't 3 shots 3/5ths of the way there not 2/5ths of a 5 shot group? Just asking.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Isn't 3 shots 3/5ths of the way there not 2/5ths of a 5 shot group? Just asking

You're right, I'm Mr FatFingers when it comes to typing

 

[Dean Williams]

I'm sorry you're sick (not to mention tired), krochus. The thing is, you will probably just have to
get over it, since you don't make the rules.
Neither of us do.

If someone thinks that putting three into an inch is what they need, who are you to say it is not?
If they plainly state that it's three rounds, they've told no lie.

If someone wants to say "they all went into a nickel", is it less easy to understand than "they all went into .835 inches"?
Can you imagine .835" in your mind? Can you imagine the size of a nickel?
The nickel is probably easier to imagine than .835".
We're not using nickel, dimes or quarters to judge shooting competitions, after all. What's the harm?

Does this just drive you mad?



Darn. It's only four shots. Not three or five!
I'm really boogered now...




And, I can say all day long if I want to.
It's a common colloquialism usually referring to an occurrence that happens with regularity.

Besides, saying I can shoot six 10 shot groups with my 45 LC, at 25 yards and keep every group under 3 1/2"
makes me sound like a bore, or a liar.
Maybe I should say it shoots 3 1/2" groups with boring regularity.

I don't know. This is a lot of fuss over how people want to talk about their firearms.

 

[d2wing]

Some guys just can't take a hint.

 

[plinky]

First of all, like others have said, it's the internet. What are you gonna do? Then again, before squawking about my "all day dime shooter" I have to wonder when a THR associate might show up with a dime and a day to kill.

A peeve of mine that I don't think has been mentioned is called fliers. Now there is such a thing and it is useful but that doesn't mean you can ignore the flier(s) for the sake of a good group. Occasionally even magazine tests will use this crutch. If you have a series of such targets it probably shows good potential if you can just get rid of the fliers Till then, the group is what it is.

I'm alright with 3 shots for a high powered sporter. Of course if you have one that doesn't fly wild after 5 or 10 shots that is really impressive.

I don't think most embelishers mean to lie. It's just selective memory. It's human nature. I've caught myself doing it. And before they uh...lie to everyone else, they lie to themselves. That's a good reason to truly document your shooting, at least while you are testing the rifle or loads. I allow a fouling shot or two and then every shot is on the record. At the end I take a brutal cold average including the ugly groups. Again, this is while I'm testing. There are groups I'd love to throw out but then the test would not mean much.

 

[.38 Special]

A peeve of mine that I don't think has been mentioned is called fliers. Now there is such a thing and it is useful but that doesn't mean you can ignore the flier(s) for the sake of a good group. Occasionally even magazine tests will use this crutch.

I just finished reading an article wherein the author fired eight shot groups and discounted the worst shot in each. Said it helped calm him down so he shot better. At some point you start to wonder why they bother reporting accuracy at all.

 

[jerkface11]

I've decided to use produce to measure my groups from now on! Look forward to postings about lima bean sized groups. Or if I'm lucky english pea sized!

 

[taliv]

guys, this is not friggin rocket science.

if you shoot ten 3-shot groups in a row (in one day or one per year for 10 years) and they're all inside whatever group size makes you happy and at the same spot, then congratulations.

that's just as good as shooting six 5-shot groups, or three 10-shot groups.

just don't shoot ten 3-shot groups, none of which are centered at the same point, then pick and post the smallest, created by dumb luck and half the size of the others, and then
a) claim your gun shoots that sized group on demand or all day long
b) claim all guns of that model will shoot that sized group


for the love of God, people, if you're honest with yourself, a series of 3-shot groups will tell YOU what you need to know.
what a 3-shot group by itself WON'T do is convince anyone else who knows ^%@#-all about statistics or precision shooting that it is representative sample of typical groups shot by that rifle.

I'd like to think that's sort of obvious.


edit: not sure I understand the currency hate. i have posted pics of groups measured by dollar bills.

 

[Freightman]

The best "IornSight" shooter shows up at the range withsome of the rattist military rifles I haves ever seen, and whips the pants off of the younger guys in the military shoot. He is 80 years old and can't walk and complains all the time that he can't see. Showed up once with a Vertelli made in 1869 and won.
What am I getting at sometimes it isn't the rifle it is the shooter.
I heard a long time ago that a man will lie about two things, How much sex he has and his gas milage, I think there may be a third how little hs "Groups" are!
Man I am happy if they stay in the ten ring at 100 cause I am just shooting at the center of the paper anyhow as not any way I can see the target.

 

[W.E.G.]

My FAL will do this "all day long."

I'm OK with that.



If I baby it, and massage it, it can sometimes be forced to do this.
(sequence of shots - each fired from a cold <more or less> bore.)

 

[DRYHUMOR]

I shot this out of my LTR at 100 yds (.223). This was the first time I had shot this ammo through the rifle, BHA Varmint 50 gr Vmax blue box. The scope was previously zeroed with Federal 64 gr TRU.

Cold shot to warm shot, 6 shots in less than 5 minutes. I can't recall if I moved windage and elevation, but I seem to think I did during this grouping.

A little smaller than the broad side of a barn, it's 1.5 inches.

 

[mule157]

how about water melon sized groups

 

[longdayjake]

I challenge anyone from another country to claim that they don't know how big a dime is. I have travelled in foreign countries and lived in South America and I can tell you that the world is pretty much filled with american money. Not only that, but if we were to say that we shot under 1" people from other countries would wonder how big an inch is.