Who's packing heat at the mall?

[gsbell]

Michigan - Who's packing heat at the mall?

Woodland Mall and Centerpointe Mall in Grand Rapids, MI has declared themselves a gun free zone.

http://blog.mlive.com/grpress/2007/12/whos_packing_heat_at_the_mall.html

Who's packing heat at the mall?
Posted by Shandra Martinez | The Grand Rapids Press December 13, 2007 09:13AM
Categories: Breaking News, Top Stories

Press Photo/Jon M. Brouwer

Doug VanderWoude's gun is shown as he stands in his Wyoming gun store. He keeps his weapon covered with a jacket when shopping elsewhere.How do you feel about people carrying concealed weapons at the mall? Post a comment below.
GRAND RAPIDS -- When Doug VanderWoude does his Christmas shopping, he's packing more than money. Not far from his wallet is his gun.

It is his way of protecting himself and others from the kind of violence that happened in an Omaha mall last week, when a gunman opened fire on employees and shoppers. The 19-year-old man killed eight people before turning the gun on himself.

"The way I look at a firearm, it's my safety device. I wear a safety belt when I drive because you never know if an accident will happen. I wear a gun in case a crime happens," said VanderWoude, 42, co-owner of a Wyoming gun shop.

Last week's tragedy prompted Michigan native Ted Nugent -- known as much for his gun-rights stance as his rock music -- to write an essay that appeared in a Detroit paper this week. He called on the government to get rid of "gun-free zones" and for law-abiding citizens to "get a gun, learn to use it and to do the right thing."

Closer to home, the incident has prompted a similar reaction.

The mall shooting galvanized Thomas Antor, a Sparta resident and former police officer, who says he plans to obtain a concealed weapons permit and take his gun when he shops.

"I've grown older. I see more of a need. This world is becoming more dangerous. I don't want to be a victim," said Antor, whose letter to The Press' Public Pulse appeared Tuesday.

VanderWoude has been taking his .45 or 38 special with him shopping since July 2001, when a state law took effect making it easier to get a concealed weapons permit. He and his employees at the Silver Bullet Firearms Indoor Range & Training Center, 5121 S. Division Ave., wear their guns at work.

There now are 4,500 people in Kent County with permits to carry concealed weapons and 2,400 in Ottawa County, according to state records.

Permit-holders are banned from carrying their concealed weapons into certain public areas, including schools, day care centers, churches, hospitals, casinos, colleges, sports arenas and stadiums, and bars where liquor sales are the primary source of income.

But access to malls and stores depends on the policy of individual operators.

For example, Woodland Mall in Kentwood and Centerpointe Mall in Grand Rapids prohibit weapons except for those carried by law enforcement or authorized security. Mall security guards don't carry guns, either.

"We are a shopping environment and want people to feel comfortable, and we don't think that makes people feel comfortable to see people with weapons," said Cheryl Dougherty, vice president of marketing for Woodland Mall's parent company, Pennsylvania Retail Estate Investment Trust.

"We are staffed with rigorously-trained security teams and work with law enforcement. Our malls have advanced security camera systems in place. Our highest priority is to provide our shoppers and mall employees with a safe shopping environment."

RiverTown Crossings in Grandville doesn't ban permit holders from carrying their weapons, but if a gun is spotted, the person will be asked to leave the premises.

"Typically, we involve the police at this point," said Randy Zimmerman, general manager of the area's largest mall.

Grandville Police Chief Vern Snyder said weapons carried by shoppers with permits haven't been an issue at the mall.

"As soon as (the gun) becomes visible, then we end up with the public being concerned, and technically we may have a violation of the law," Snyder said, "because the law doesn't allow people to display weapons where they are creating panic."

Snyder declined to say how he feels about people with permits carrying guns into the mall.

Rivertown Crossings is owned by General Growth Properties Inc., which owns more than 200 malls nationwide, including the Westroads Mall in Omaha, the location of last week's shooting.

While its security personnel aren't armed, the company does hire armed off-duty police for some locations, or has police substations in some spots.

"As far as security, it's the No. 1 priority in our minds, not just when a tragedy happens like in Omaha," said David Keating, director of corporate communication for the Chicago-based company.

Zimmerman says that while he works closely with Grandville police, no armed off-duty officers are employed as part of mall's security.

He can remember only one time in which a weapon was an issue at RiverTown Crossings. A woman, who was a personal security guard, was trying on clothes at the Marshall Field's store -- now Macy's -- to make sure they concealed her weapon.

"She actually apologized for the incident," said Zimmerman, adding the police

Make your voice and opinion on this topic known
http://www.centerpointemall.com/html/mallservices.asp

http://www.shopwoodlandmall.com/tools/contact_us

Woodland Mall is owned by: Pennsylvania Real Estate Investment Trust
Contact them as well the Chairman / CEO is Ronald Rubin
http://www.preit.com/tools/contactus/rubin_ronald


People lets jump on this and make them understand the impact that excluding a group of law abiding citizens from their business has.

 

[Anonymous Coward]

Leaflets?

 

[gsbell]

Feel free to modify for your use and send:

Thursday, December 13, 2007

Ronald Rubin
Chairman / CEO

Pennsylvania Real Estate Investment Trust
200 South Broad Street
Philidelphia, PA 19102-3803

Dear Mr. Rubin,

I am writing because I just today became aware that one of your properties Woodland Mall in Grand Rapids, MI has a policy in place barring law abiding citizens with a permit to carry a concealed handgun from entering your mall with a concealed handgun. I learned of this from an article that appeared on Thursday, December 13, 2007 in the Grand Rapids Press. Here is a link to that article: http://blog.mlive.com/grpress/2007/12/whos_packing_heat_at_the_mall.html

Criminals by their very definition do not follow laws or policies, your policy will do absolutely nothing to enhance the safety of your patrons.

I am a law abiding citizen who passed a criminal background check and took a state mandated class which focuses heavily on the legal aspects of carrying a firearm in the State of Michigan. I pose no threat to your property or its patrons; I carry a firearm for my own personal protection.

With your current firearms policy in place I will no longer shop at any of your properties. I can understand in today litigious political correct world the desire to do something or make a statement against violence and crime. If your desire is to make a statement then perhaps your policy could be modified to say that illegal weapons are banned from this property.

Regards,

Greg Bell

 

[CoRoMo]

We are a shopping environment and want people to feel comfortable, and we don't think that makes people feel comfortable to see people with weapons

Being unarmed and comfortable is hard to achieve, especially in a shopping mall.

Our highest priority is to provide our shoppers and mall employees with a safe shopping environment.

They just don't allow shoppers and mall employees to defend themselves against a criminal with a deadly weapon, that's all.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I can understand in today litigious political correct world the desire to do something or make a statement against violence and crime.

Offer them no understanding or way out at all. Don't make their excuses for them, they have none.

 

[GoCodeBravo]

I avoid malls as much as possible, and have gotten my wife to do the same. When I'm in one in Texas, I always have options (mutiple ones) some of which go "bang" and others that are silent and sharp.

Any business owner that posts "legal" no guns signage does NOT get my business. There are simply too many choices for the consumer, as a CCW/CHL holder to shop in "free kill" zones. Then again, concealed is concealed....so out of sight is out of mind.

 

[jlbraun]

Who did all $600 worth of Christmas shopping totally online this year because some retailers choose to post asinine signs?

(raises hand)

 

[starshooter231]

"We are a shopping environment and want people to feel comfortable, and we don't think that makes people feel comfortable to see people with weapons," said Cheryl Dougherty, vice president of marketing for Woodland Mall's parent company, Pennsylvania Retail Estate Investment Trust.

I am confused. How can they see my concealed sidearm? I have been to that mall and I didn't see a NO GUNS sign. But then again I have only been there one time since I started carrying. I normally stay away from shadey places but I had to return some stuff. I guess they don't want my money. Rivertown can have it all.

 

[starshooter231]

Zimmerman says that while he works closely with Grandville police, no armed off-duty officers are employed as part of mall's security.

Translation= "Hey bad guys, come here we don't have ANY armed personell here". IDIOT
Atleast I have my sidearm.

 

[starshooter231]

If anybody cares and I am sure you do.

Centerpointe Mall in Grand Rapids prohibit weapons except for those carried by law enforcement or authorized security. Mall security guards don't carry guns, either.

This company is owned by the same company as Rivertown Crossings so please if you are going to send a letter to the owners of Woodland Mall please do the same to them. I will try to find the specific contact info.

 

[Geno]

Per the article:

'We are a shopping environment and want people to feel comfortable, and we don't think that makes people feel comfortable to see people with weapons,' said Cheryl Dougherty, vice president of marketing for Woodland Mall's parent company, Pennsylvania Retail Estate Investment Trust.

I say, let Pennsylvania rule Pennsylvania; let Michigan rule Michigan. Furthermore, concealed means concealed. Frankly, I will not shop where I am not allowed to protect my family, and where the powers-that-be fail to provide us that protection. However, I am not so nieve as to assume that my not shopping there will sway their minds.

As I understand the law in Michigan, per our MCPL course, if a mall posts no firearms, the worst they can do is ask that a person depart their property if they becoime aware that the person is carrying. In that spirit, is it not still legal to carry until such point as one is requested to depart? While I recall that to be the case with Michigan law, it is time to call my friend who is a criminal defense attorney, and who also has his MCPL, and to ask him. Time to contact Lansing as well. The pistol-free, murder-zones have to go.

Doc2005

 

[jeepmor]

No worries, you won't see my weapon. If any malls around my area have this policy, I've never noticed the signs.. That said, I visit the mall on an annual basis, if that.

Letter should hit home more solidly in that is says, dear sir, due to your no weapons policy, your establishment will be missing out on the thousands of dollars I spend a year at the mall.

 

[gsbell]

Doc2005,
You are correct a sign has no weight here. However I really don't want to contribute to their profits if they don't want me on their property.

 

[gsbell]

starshooter231,
Here is the info: http://www.ggp.com/Contactus.aspx

 

[Geno]

I agree. I won't drive there to shop and give them my business. My concern is for example if I have to take my daughter to a BD party here in "Joke"-land County, then I have little choice, and I refuse to endanger her life. I will adhere to the letter of Michigan's laws.

Doc2005

 

[starshooter231]

gsbell-
thanks for the info.

 

[gsbell]

No problem, I sent a letter to them as well. Thanks for the heads up I wasn't aware of the common ownership with Rivertown

 

[tasco 74]

Gun Free Zone=soft Target=target Rich Environment

for the bad guys.....................

 

[Javelin]

Everyone now I bet

 

[Shovelhead]

Local mall has "Official Entrances" posted with the "No Gun" rules.
However the Sears store in the mall has an outside entrance and is not posted.........

Guess which entrance I use.

 

[CNYCacher]

Who did all $600 worth of Christmas shopping totally online this year because some retailers choose to post asinine signs?

"You are welcome to carry a firearm, open or concealed, while shopping on this website."

I'd love to see that on a site somewhere

 

[chipperi]

I usually enter through one of he stores that doesn't have any posted signs on the doors. So if I am made I can truthfully and honestly say "I am sorry there were no posted signs that contained the proper language to comply with TN law. I will stop spending my money and go home now."

But concealed is concealed you won't know I have it unless your life depends on it. So hopefully I will never need to say that phrase.

 

[politicalgeek]

"RiverTown Crossings in Grandville doesn't ban permit holders from carrying their weapons, but if a gun is spotted, the person will be asked to leave the premises.

Typically, we involve the police at this point," said Randy Zimmerman, general manager of the area's largest mall.As soon as (the gun) becomes visible, then we end up with the public being concerned, and technically we may have a violation of the law," Snyder said, "because the law doesn't allow people to display weapons where they are creating panic."

I don't know the laws of Michigan regarding Open Carry, but these 2 statements kind of bugged me. One the mall owner/manager doesn't have a "ban" on firearms/CCW, yet you're asked to leave if you print or someone makes a ruckus if the butt shows as you move or something snags it? Then the police are called in. Nice. I might be making too much of it, but it'd be nice not to see the gun is evil mentality. Even better, the mob rule mentality. Never mind the rights of that individual, it only matters how society feels.

Otherwise pretty decent article, pretty positive and it gets the CCW idea otu there.

 

[scout26]

"We are staffed with rigorously-trained security teams..."

Am I the only one who thought of Gecko45 when they read this ?????

 

[gsbell]

everybody is send out emails or calling, correct?