Wouldn't 5 be enough?

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Like a lot of you, I carry a S&W J frame with five .38 Special +P loads in the cylinder. This is a close quarter personal defense handgun, not something for longer range or extended shooting. I read that many of you carry extra ammo in the speed loaders or clips or you Glock shooters with more ammo weight in the clip than the gun itself. I would sure think that if I had the time to be reloading, that I would also have time to be out of the situation. Am I just being naive not packing lots of extra ammunition along or are lots of people just paranoid? I figure that my best defense is not putting myself in harms way to begin with. Comments?
IF you could control the circumstances (perhaps through an agreement with your prospective attacker), just one round would be enough.

Unfortunately, the attacker controls the circumstances. He determines the time and place of the attack. And while you and I want to keep out of harm's way, he may have a different goal.

I look at it this way -- I don't WANT to have a flat tire, but I carry a spare.

I don't WANT to have a house fire, but I buy insurance, have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers.

I don't WANT to have a gun fight, but I carry a gun.

I don't WANT to have to do a lot of shooting in a fight, but I carry a spare. magazine
 
This will be debated until the end of time.

I personally believe that even if you have a reload on your person, most likely it will not come into play. Whether you have 5 rounds on tap, 17, or whatever.


Not to say it's a bad idea to carry a reload. Do what makes you feel most comfortable. But I think if something happens, God forbid... you will more than likely live or die with whatever is in the gun at the time.
 
IF you could control the circumstances...
Said another way, no matter how convincing an explanation/rationalization may be, it won't alter the reality of the particular gunfight you find yourself in. A lot of people seem to think that if they can produce enough statistics, or rationalize their capacity choice sufficiently, or explain their preference thoroughly enough that it will actually have some concrete effect on the number of rounds they will need to fire in a gunfight.

That's not how reality works. If it turns out to be a gunfight that requires more than 5 rounds then all the statistics, rationalizations and explanations in the world won't reduce the requirements to only 5 rounds nor will they put sufficient rounds in the gun to give you what you need to prevail.
 
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I wonder how many of those "five is plenty" folks have ever been in a tight spot? :uhoh:
I am guessing not many.



However, that is probably also true for the "I don't step out of the house without two guns and 1,700 rounds of ammo" crowd.

Statistically, very, very few of us are ever going to need a gun. Same with need for a fire extinguisher, but I keep mine charged.
 
Or the strung out drug addict I dealt with last night that wanted his fix and would not take no for a answer.

I think you may be looking at this from the perspective of an LEO or something like that. It wasn't real clear why you are FTF with a druggie.

I don't do interventions. I don't live in the city and rarely go there. I think the last shooting on the island where I live was 2 years ago.

If you live in a small town in the midwest the stats are probably about the same.

Not every place in the US is a war zone of druggies, gang bangers and suicide by cop mental cases.

To be clear I have a P-229 and I train with it every few weeks. I just don't carry it much.
 
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With an average of 2 shots fired in a gunfight, it would be interesting to see what the standard deviation of shots fired is around the average.

Per normal statistics calculations and evaluations...

If you had 2 rounds plus one standard deviation number of rounds with you, 68% of the encounters would be ended within that number of rounds.

2 plus two standard deviations, the confidence level is 95%.

2 plus three standard deviations, the confidence level is 99.7%.

I suspect, in reality, the 2 shot average is a nation wide average while certain parts of the country would have higher or lower averages and standard deviations depending upon the crime activity level of the area.

I generally carry low round count guns with one reload so five is not enough for me.
 
Tell that to the widow of my co worker who had 6 (OkOne more) whose husband died in a gun fight with two mopes armed with semi auto's. they were trying to get his money bag. He was wearing his vest and took a skipped round in his right shoulder. as he was trying to reoad one handed they put two behind his ear. Not long after that the state of Massachusets changed it's rules for armed couriers

Money bag? Armed courier? Vest? See anything here that might attract a heist or armed robbery? Those guys get jacked all the time. Probably not your typical citizen in their daily routine.
 
all the statistics, rationalizations and explanations in the world won't reduce the requirements to only 5 rounds

So what are the requirements for a gunfight other than having one and the training to use it?

I'm not sure anyone knows the answer.
 
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I don't think anyone here is debating that something really bad, with a lot of assailants, requiring a lot of shooting 'could' happen. A lot of things 'could' happen. Yeah, you 'could' have a flat tire but you 'could' also have two flat tires, been there, done that. Gonna carry two spares? You 'could' need a rifle. Gonna carry one of those too? As I said, you have to make your own choices and there's a whole hell of a lot of factors influencing that decision besides the obvious. If you ask me, we spend way too much time obsessing about 'this' sort of thing than we probably should. We probably 'should' spend more time shooting and less time worrying about covering every conceivable circumstance with equipment choices. We spend a lot of time arguing about carrying more ammo but how much time do we spend making damned sure we're as efficient as possible with the ammo we do carry? How much are cops missing with their high capacity autos? Hell, I'd rather spend more time shooting my hunting handguns because I KNOW FOR A FACT that I'm going to have to use them every year. :confused:
 
With an average of 2 shots fired in a gunfight, it would be interesting to see what the standard deviation of shots fired is around the average.

Per normal statistics calculations and evaluations...

If you had 2 rounds plus one standard deviation number of rounds with you, 68% of the encounters would be ended within that number of rounds.

2 plus two standard deviations, the confidence level is 95%.

2 plus three standard deviations, the confidence level is 99.7%.

I suspect, in reality, the 2 shot average is a nation wide average while certain parts of the country would have higher or lower averages and standard deviations depending upon the crime activity level of the area.

I generally carry low round count guns with one reload so five is not enough for me.

The rationale for the statistics, that drop off dramatically after Six(6) rounds, is that a lot of people shooting revolvers continue to shoot the pistol until it is empty.


IF you could control the circumstances (perhaps through an agreement with your prospective attacker), just one round would be enough.

Unfortunately, the attacker controls the circumstances. He determines the time and place of the attack. And while you and I want to keep out of harm's way, he may have a different goal.

I look at it this way -- I don't WANT to have a flat tire, but I carry a spare.

I don't WANT to have a house fire, but I buy insurance, have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers.

I don't WANT to have a gun fight, but I carry a gun.

I don't WANT to have to do a lot of shooting in a fight, but I carry a spare. magazine

Statistically, the odds of encountering/drawing/firing more than Six(6) rounds to stop the threat, in a self defense situation? Are about 1/6,000.

...Or, only about 66% ^ than the odds of ending up a Highway Fatality that same year. (1/10,000)


Most don't want a flat... but we only carry One(1) spare tire. Not ideal for the statistically low multiple blow-out.

Most wear a three-point safety-belt over street clothes... but a 4-point harness and crash helmet w/ cervical support, along with a Nomex fireproof suit, is much safer.


Practical Reality.




GR
 
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So what are the requirements for a gunfight other than having one and the training to use it?

I'm not sure anyone knows the answer.
First of all, the choice to only partially quote the sentence makes it easier to twist the meaning so that the questions sound appropriate when actually, they are not. Here was the original sentence, quoted in its entirety and with emphasis that makes it clear that the questions are essentially meaningless in the proper context of the entire sentence.

"If it turns out to be a gunfight that requires more than 5 rounds then all the statistics, rationalizations and explanations in the world won't reduce the requirements to only 5 rounds nor will they put sufficient rounds in the gun to give you what you need to prevail."

The requirements of the hypothetical gunfight that the sentence referred to were explicitly stated in the part of the sentence that were omitted from the quote. This particular hypothetical gunfight "requires more than 5 rounds".

Ok, that aside, let's look at the question as a general one rather than as a response to my specific quote, since it clearly isn't applicable in that context.

Without knowing all the specific details of a particular gunfight, it's impossible to be precise, but it's easy to state the general requirements.

The requirements of a gunfight are to have the capability/means/skill/equipment/will to take the actions that are necessary to stop the attack and to protect the life and well-being of the innocent participants.

In some cases that might require taking cover and firing a single shot which kills the attacker. Or it might require drawing the gun and firing two shots which both miss but cause the attacker to give up or flee. Or, it could require drawing the gun, firing until it is empty and then reloading. There are obviously many, MANY different possible combinations of actions that could be required to successfully deal with a gunfight.
Statistically, the odds of encountering/drawing/firing more that Six(6) rounds to stop the threat, in a self defense situation? Are about 1/6,000.
Do you mind sharing your source? It sounds like something I would find very interesting.
 
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Do you mind sharing your source? It sounds like something I would find very interesting.

It was a DOJ report of civilian defensive encounters/shootings, with a breakout of number of defensive shots fired for all weapon types.

Have it on an old HD somewhere, as it was research data for a project some years back.

What was interesting, besides the high percentage of incidences where simply presenting the weapon stopped the threat, is that it was an asymmetrical bell curve, weighted over 2-3 round, and then sharply dropping off after 6.




GR
 
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Oh well. I was hoping it was available online. That kind of data on non-LE defensive shootings is difficult to find. I appreciate the response.
 
It was... and still may be.
Would it be possible to post the exact title? That would narrow down the search considerably. Usually my "google-fu" is pretty good but I'm not getting anywhere with this one.
 
Would it be possible to post the exact title? That would narrow down the search considerably. Usually my "google-fu" is pretty good but I'm not getting anywhere with this one.

Don't remember it, as it was just data.

The research was for essentially the same question as this thread, except for Six(6) rounds instead of five (didn't Dirty Harry say that?) - cross referenced against driver highway fatalities.

At the time, was considering transitioning from the GLOCK G23 (13+1 .40), to the lighter/thinner GLOCK G36 (6+1 .45 ACP)


What I found was, statistically, the odds of encountering/drawing/firing more than Six(6) rounds to stop the threat, in a self defense situation? Are about 1/6,000.

...Or, only about 66% ^ than the odds of ending up a Highway Fatality that same year. (1/10,000)


Very happy with the G36 as an IWB/CCW.




GR
 
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What's the percentage number of all non LE people who carry a gun and have never had to use it? 95%. Maybe more?

Why not discuss how many rounds these folks need to carry?
 
What's the percentage number of all non LE people who carry a gun and have never had to use it? 95%. Maybe more?

Why not discuss how many rounds these folks need to carry?
You've hit upon one of the reasons many people find this topic so frustrating and confusing.

It's actually two topics.

You are absolutely correct that most people will never need a gun, or (almost the same thing but not quite) will get through their entire lives without being killed or seriously injured by a criminal in spite of not ever using a gun in self-defense.

It is also true that some people will need a gun for self-defense, or (almost the same thing but not quite) will justifiably use a gun to prevent someone from seriously injuring or killing them or another innocent.

It's a mistake to try to deal with the two different topics at the same time because it results in confusing and contradictory conclusions. Here's an example: "Well, if most people don't ever need to defend themselves with a gun, why is it even important how many rounds they carry?" Well, it is important, but why it is important may not be immediately obviously.

Let's think about another similar problem. Flat tires are not especially common. I drive around 25,000 miles a year and I haven't had a flat tire in about 10 years--and yes, I realize that I probably just jinxed myself by saying that. So, I might start thinking to myself. I've gotten along without needing a spare for the past decade, maybe it would be smart for me to save some space and weight. I'll do it by letting the air out of my spare tire and removing the rubber from the wheel. I'll have more room in my trunk and the car will be a little lighter so I'll get slightly better gas mileage. But I like carrying the wheel, jack and lug wrench so I'm going to keep them in the car.

It's not hard to understand why this makes no sense. It MIGHT make sense for me to ditch the entire spare wheel/tire and the jack and the lug wrench based on my risk assessment (whether or not you agree that my risk assessment is correct). But it makes no sense for me to effectively eliminate my ability to deal with a flat tire AND to keep some of the tools handy in spite of the fact that they won't do me any good.

In other words, part of the overall assessment needs to include some assessment not only of the CHANCES of getting a flat, but also the assessment of what I will need to have on hand to be able to deal with a flat if I DO have one. Otherwise I get into this weird zone where it seems to make sense to carry a jack and lug wrench but not a spare wheel...

Moving back to self-defense, the same sort of thing applies. I fully accept that I will likely never need to draw my gun to protect myself. Based on that, it would make sense for me to stop carrying a gun altogether. But it doesn't make sense for me to use that low risk as a rationale for picking a self-defense gun that is a serious handicap if I DO need one. Why waste the effort and go to the hassle of carrying a gun that is unlikely to be useful? If I really don't believe the risk is enough to carry a truly effective weapon, then the logical approach is to not carry at all.

Trying to use the overall odds to pick a preparation level is mixing the two topics and it gets me into the weird zone where I can rationalize carrying something ineffective. Like maybe just an empty holster because I like holsters--or maybe a gun that's so hard to shoot and has such a small capacity that it's unlikely to provide a workable solution if things really go south.

So focusing on the OVERALL risk makes a lot of sense for deciding if you want to prepare AT ALL, but it results in bizarre, potentially useless, and yet seemingly "logical" conclusions if you also try to use it to decide what LEVEL you want to prepare to.

I've made the decision that I want to prepare for the possibility that I will need a gun for self-defense. That part is now over with. I might revisit that decision at some point and come up with a different decision, but that decision would be whether or not to carry, not what I want to carry or how many rounds it will hold, or if I'm going to carry it with a round in the chamber. I have already made the decision that I want to be able to deal with a flat tire. So I know I'm going to carry a spare wheel/tire AND a jack AND a lug wrench. Now I'm just trying to decide how effective those tools need to be. Will a compact spare do? Is one spare enough Do I want a more versatile jack than the minimalist tool provided with the vehicle? Etc.

Similarly, once I've decided to carry a gun, it's time to determine what level I want to prepare to.

Maybe I want to prepare for the possibility of a single determined attacker. So, I carry a handgun that holds enough rounds and that is capable enough that I assess a reasonable chance of my being able to make 2 or more hits on the attacker before I run dry since it's pretty well accepted that it's unwise to expect a single pistol round to down a determined attacker on a reliable basis. How many rounds is that? Well, it's almost certainly more than 2 given that people tend to miss when they are under severe stress. But exactly how many is a hard question.

Or maybe I want to prepare for the "two determined attackers" scenario. That suggests I might want double the rounds that were required for the "single determined attacker" scenario--except that things aren't quite that simple because at some point I can't shoot fast enough to get through all my rounds before I will likely get hit by the bad guys... But obviously I want more than I did for the single attacker scenario--determining exactly how many more is hard.

Maybe I want to prepare to deal with a potential active shooter situation. That might drive a different round count, maybe a reload, or maybe even a different gun and carry method.

Anyway, the bottom line is that once you've made the decision that you are going to carry, you're done with that part of the decision. Now you LEAVE that decision and move on to the next decision. The decision of what your preparation level will be needs to be based on facts, on reality, and on your particular circumstances. The decision should not be merely an exercise in justifying what you want to carry to yourself and others.
 
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Well, I have carried a Browning Hi-Power since Viet Nam in 69 and back then a spare mag. Today I don't normally do the spare mag. IF I can't solve the problem with the first10 rds (of 15) I will use the other 5 to disengage and GTHOT!
IF I'm going some where that my HP might not be enuf (Don't know where that might be, but --), I'll throw in an M1A1Thompson with a couple of 30 rd mags to accompany the HP.
Sarge
 
IMO one of the biggest flaws is THR members thinking they can control the numbers of rounds they fire in a self-defense situation so they don't need a reload or spare magazine.

It is very, very well documented in law enforcement officer shootings that the officer did not realize the gun was empty until they heard the click, click, click of the firing pin falling on empty rounds. In post-shooting interviews the officer would say they thought they only fired two rounds.

We do not have the same level of training and combat training like SWAT or Navy SEALS. Stress and fear override rational thought processes. So to say I will only shoot 2, 4, 10 rounds, stop, calmly reassess the situation then use the remaining rounds in my gun to protect me while I retreat to safety is not realistic for most of us.

This is not to say that there are not folks with a lot of military training and combat experience that can do so. Just consider how many THR members that only shoot a 25 round box or two or even only a magazine or two of ammunition in their new self-defense gun and call it good enough to carry and how rarely they go to the range to practice.

Self-defense trainers warn about being caught with a empty gun after a shooting incident as criminals acting in pairs (wheelman / woman waiting in the getaway car) or teams (think gang bangers for example) is not uncommon.

Hopefully I can control my level of fear to manage the number of rounds I fire if ever forced to. Logic tells me that the more rounds I have in my gun the less likely I am to shoot it dry. In other words I will be able to exercise some rational thought over the number of times I pull the trigger at some point. (15 rounds is a lot of trigger pulling). But if I do run my gun dry I don't want to be standing there stupidly looking at my now empty gun trying to figure out what to do next.

p.s. I will raise my hand as being someone that doesn't get to the range as often as I should. Life has a way of preventing things we like. The temperature this morning was 26 degrees and it is forcasted to be 22 degrees this afternoon.
 
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Money bag? Armed courier? Vest? See anything here that might attract a heist or armed robbery? Those guys get jacked all the time. Probably not your typical citizen in their daily routine.
The bag was small and about the size of a purse. Of course he was armed. We were paid to safely deliver a clients funds to the bank. He was in plain cloths not in a uniform and his vest (like mine at the time) was concealed under his clothing. So were our weapons. In the 2 1/2 years I did this work I was never spotted carrying my weapon (and on many an occasion I was carrying a Colt Trooper with a 4 inch barrel). Our guy was mistaken for the night manager from home depot (he got delayed cause he couldn't lock the front door of the store)
 
Everybody has to roll the dice and live (or not) with their decision. Two times I have been in dire situations. SA helped me gain the upper hand allowing a surprise counterattack at the last second when I was unable to safely vacate ASAP both times. The first a long sharp blade solved it although I had my other hand on the EDC if needed. The second was solved by brandishing, staring down, and holding my ground aggressively. Now I no longer need to go anywhere near that rathole and feel much safer. Playing the odds today a five shooter snub or commander size 45 are my choices. I keep the spare ammo and long gun in the vehicle that is usually nearby.
I'm dying to know what "SA" is. Please?
 
I read where an Off -duty LEO scuffled with a terrorist in Philly last week.... when the terrorist exited the car he was try to run people down with.....I read where 10 shots were fired....maybe from the retention position or defending the gun in the scuffle, I dunno.
 
I read where an Off -duty LEO scuffled with a terrorist in Philly last week.... when the terrorist exited the car he was try to run people down with.....I read where 10 shots were fired....maybe from the retention position or defending the gun in the scuffle, I dunno.

We tend to forget, we carry handguns, not because they are powerful, but because they are portable. TheMiami Dade shootout showed that people can get shot and keep moving aggressively.
 
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