'Scout' Rifle: Where to start?

JeeperCreeper said:

I always wanted a "scout" rifle but I hate the price and strict form factor.

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...and, as I understand it, no one could meet his original weight limit and produce a reasonable rifle. Talk about strict form factor.

I've actually wanted to ask the question about the merit of the Cooper Scout rifle, to me it doesn't make sense... but the name sounds cool, right? I do agree with some of the others when they say technology today would probably have had Cooper produce a different rifle... probably much different, and I think what would have evolved would have been quite a few of the short rifles already on the shelf today.

If I was to grab a rifle to fulfill a 'Scout' role, I'd just grab my Socom16... because it has that cool name, right?

For me, weight is a subjective factor. The weight of a rifle should be determined by the end user, not the great committee in the sky. I hate to even bring this up, because the dedicated scout guys have almost a religious reverence for the scout rifle specifications. I have always liked my centerfire rifles in the 8-9 pound range and yes I carry them all over. I am mostly a mountain hunter and have carried a 8-9 pound rifle for all of my life. The Ruger is a bit porcine, but I like that. It is much easier for me to shoot accurately from field positions after exertion. Others may like the lighter rifles and that is great as well. I think a scout-type rifle should be more a personalized fit rather than a made to spec. I find the most affection for rifles that fit me, rather than ones that were built for someone else. This tends to make me want to shoot them more and thus be more proficient. I guess I perfer the term General Purpose Rifle instead of Scout to avoid all this nonsense.

Coal Dragger said:

Sure, but I’m not going to go back to .45 ACP FMJ unless compelled to by a change in the law.

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Just saying, you can't really criticize anyone for promoting the .45 ACP over the 9mm Para back then. Now, certainly! I love the .45 ACP and own several guns in that chambering, but for carry I prefer one of my 9mm Para guns, loaded with modern Gold Dot or HST JHPs.

Coal Dragger said:

As for the scout scope concept, in the late 60’s through the 80’s it had some minimal merit. However technology in optics progressed and the variable optic with a true 1X low end to 4,5,6,7, and 8X top end has rendered the forward mounted scout scope obsolete.

That said a light compact bolt action carbine in .308 with a low power variable, and a decent sling is still a very useful. Call it a scout, practical rifle, whatever.

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I agree, that the optimum design to fulfill Cooper's "scout rifle" role would be different today than his original concept. I would even say, the scout rifle concept (using the original or an updated design) is probably not the best choice for most people. That said, I still want a "classic" Cooper scout rifle, not because I need it, not because its the best all around rifle design, but just because I think it's cool.

Whenever the subject of "Scout" rifles arises, I'm reminded of the 1966 issue of Sports Afield Annual which features on the cover a rifle developed and written about by Pete Brown. He was the long time Shooting Editor of and extremely knowledgeable about firearms and ballistics. He was instrumental in Redfield's production of the Frontier line of long eye relief rifle scopes during the 1960's and matching mounts. Attached is the Cover and shot of Brown shooting his Rem. 600, over a half century ago.

I used a hanging scale to measure the weight of my GSR with synthetic stock. The rifle to include XS Rail, Vortex Scope 4-12, and sling weighs in at 7.9 pounds. Of course its only as accurate as the scale. Empty five round mag in the well.

I considered a ranch rifle in .243 but then a very lightly used Savage scout in .308 came on the market at an attractive price. Fur is no good down here, so was not concerned about "fur friendly". The 125 gr. 308 is very close to a 100 gr. 6mm, trajectory wise with better terminal performance. Another plus for the .308, if you need a bit more punch the .308 handles up to 180 gr. bullets nicely.

The Ruger should handle well; it is 1.6# lighter than the Savage. I think you'll like the handy little rifle; I love the short Savage.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/8/18/review-savage-arms-model-11-scout-rifle/


Regards,
hps

GR

Garandimal said:

You Will Soon Be Able to Own The C-19 Canadian Ranger Rifle – Tikka Introduces the “Arctic”

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​

GR

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http://www.recoilweb.com/tikka-t3x-arctic-131608.html

That right there is exactly all I wanted when I bought my Ruger GSR a few years ago. A laminate stocked bolt action carbine with aperture rear sight and detachable box magazine. Pretty much a modern commercial version of an Enfield Jungle Carbine, but brand new and chambered for a short action American cartridge.

Too bad my eyes need optics. Lol.

dh1633pm said:

I used a hanging scale to measure the weight of my GSR with synthetic stock. The rifle to include XS Rail, Vortex Scope 4-12, and sling weighs in at 7.9 pounds. Of course its only as accurate as the scale. Empty five round mag in the well.

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I have some weights on my "convertible" GSR as well. With nylon sling and empty 5 round steel magazine in each example shown below. None with a flash suppressor.

Top version with no optic and no scout rail = 7 pounds 8 ounces
Middle version with barrel mounted 2x optic = 8 pounds 2.7 ounces
Bottom version with receiver mounted 2-7x32 optic = 8 pounds 8.7 ounces

Give or take an ounce here or there, of course.

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A scout rifle just means it has a forward mounted pistol scope, can be anything really.

What does he mean by a "scout" rifle?

A lot of what Col. Cooper opined on way back when has turned out to be less than perfect in practice. Let's face it - the 1911 has not turned out to be ideal SD handgun, despite Cooper's bromance with it.

His notion that a bolt action rifle is the best answer to all known problems a single person on foot might encounter probably is not so. These days there are plenty of semi-auto designs that can do everything a bolt gun can do and more, and with roughly the same weight.

It seems to me his idea focused around the idea of some loner wondering around on the Great Plains or Rocky Mountains shooting an occasional elk or buffalo to eat now and then. What is the chance of that ever happening for anyone? It's no more logical than the bizarre "bug out" ideas some people claim to have that will just get them killed if they ever tried it.

Venom007 said:

A scout rifle just means it has a forward mounted pistol scope, can be anything really.

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I'm going to have to disagree with that.

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chicharrones said:

I'm going to have to disagree with that.

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Oh? Why?

Venom007 said:

Oh? Why?

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I thought the photo of my Swiss K31 was evident enough.

While I'm no stickler for the Scout rifle definition, at least a wannabe Scout rifle ought to be somewhat short and light-ish. A 43.5" long K31 with a 25.6" barrel and a starting weight of 8.8 pounds (without anything added to it yet) sure isn't going to suddenly become a "scout" rifle by installing a pistol scope on it.

Sorry, got to be the unpopular one here. But the scout I pictured back in post #6 is exactly 8 lbs with scope, sling, FVG, empty 30 rd. mag, as pictured. Once I get my lightweight BCG for my 6.5G I expect it to weigh the same. The BCG should also reduce recoil making weight even less of a factor. I don't see how going to a heavier bolt action would be better ?

ilbob said:

A lot of what Col. Cooper opined on way back when has turned out to be less than perfect in practice. Let's face it - the 1911 has not turned out to be ideal SD handgun, despite Cooper's bromance with it.

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Today, you can make a good argument that the 1911 is not the ideal SD handgun (although I know you would still get some who would disagree), but back in the 70s? Before the renaissance in semiauto pistols in the 80s, you had the 1911, the Hi-Power, and... not much else as far as semiauto combat pistols. The general consensus back then (not just Cooper) was that the 1911 was indeed the best choice as a SD handgun.

His notion that a bolt action rifle is the best answer to all known problems a single person on foot might encounter probably is not so. These days there are plenty of semi-auto designs that can do everything a bolt gun can do and more, and with roughly the same weight.

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I don't think the scout rifle was ever held as the "best answer" to any need, but the idea was it was an adequate answer to a wide variety of needs. Even back then, there were better hunting rifles, better combat rifles, better sniper rifles, better target rifles. If you had a specific usage in mind, the scout rifle was not the best choice.

Also, you need to realize that Cooper was part of the WWII generation and during WWII the bolt-action rifle was still for the most part the standard infantry combat weapon. The US was unusual in issuing the semiauto Garand to infantry. Germans, British, Soviets, etc. all used bolt actions through most of the war, so the idea of a bolt action rifle for possible fighting use was not as far fetched as it may appear today.

It seems to me his idea focused around the idea of some loner wondering around on the Great Plains or Rocky Mountains shooting an occasional elk or buffalo to eat now and then. What is the chance of that ever happening for anyone? It's no more logical than the bizarre "bug out" ideas some people claim to have that will just get them killed if they ever tried it.

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Yes, the whole thing was probably a bit of a fantasy even in Coopers time, but people who build tricked out ARs or "combat" shotguns are following the same path today.

mdauben said:

I don't think the scout rifle was ever held as the "best answer" to any need, but the idea was it was an adequate answer to a wide variety of needs.

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That's the way I read it too, and I followed the arguments advanced in the Commentaries with considerable interest.

mdauben said:

Also, you need to realize that Cooper was part of the WWII generation and during WWII the bolt-action rifle was still for the most part the standard infantry combat weapon.

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Cooper was, moreover, a Marine, and the Corps entered WWII toting the 1903 Springfield. That would have been the fighting rifle Cooper trained up on.

Venom007 said:

A scout rifle just means it has a forward mounted pistol scope, can be anything really.

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Cooper saw a scope (of any sort) as being optional on a Scout Rifle. A "forward mounted pistol scope" does not make a Scout Rifle.

SharpDog said:

Sorry, got to be the unpopular one here. But the scout I pictured back in post #6 is exactly 8 lbs with scope, sling, FVG, empty 30 rd. mag, as pictured. Once I get my lightweight BCG for my 6.5G I expect it to weigh the same. The BCG should also reduce recoil making weight even less of a factor. I don't see how going to a heavier bolt action would be better?

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Steel bolt guns with laminate stocks make better bludgeons than alloy and plastic AR type autoloaders. Fer instance, that Canadian C19 rifle in post 58 reportedly weighs 8.8 pounds empty. That C19 should be quite the polar bear skull cracker once the magazine is dry. Lol.

chicharrones said:

Steel bolt guns with laminate stocks make better bludgeons than alloy and plastic AR type autoloaders. Fer instance, that Canadian C19 rifle in post 58 reportedly weighs 8.8 pounds empty. That C19 should be quite the polar bear skull cracker once the magazine is dry. Lol.

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You just need to file off the front sights then ... So YOU won't get hurt too much when .... (old joke)

Besides, if you're expecting bear then 30 rds of 6.5G should persuade them somewhat.

Support your right to arm bears:

SharpDog said:

You just need to file off the front sights then ... So YOU won't get hurt too much when .... (old joke)

Besides, if you're expecting bear then 30 rds of 6.5G should persuade them somewhat.

Support your right to arm bears:

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btw it's actually 24 rds of 6.5G, I'm just using the European method of counting rds ... yeah, that's the ticket ... it's European)