Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by jstert, Aug 5, 2019.
You carry a bar with you? I'll have a bourbon then, neat.
Just relax and move on with your life you can dress in body armor with a ak slung over your shoulder slip on some great value juice and break your neck.
Didn't realize that the Dallas area had become that bad. It was different about 4 decades ago
Wihtout reading ANY of this discussion, I can say that EVERYWHERE was different four decades ago.
Depends on the part of Dallas you mean. Some of its really nice. George Bush nice.
Some of it’s not so nice. Ghetto and trailer park not nice.
No, I'm not changing anything after any shooting. Well, all except adding them to my prayers. If you truly feel you need 2 handguns and 120 rounds of ammo to feel safe you might want to move and probably talk to a professional. No disrespect meant, just a suggestion.
I used to run a gas truck on night shift in the early 2000's... i wouldnt want to do that now. The demographics of Dallas have changed, like all big metro areas.
You can win against an active shooter.
The first trick is, don’t be one of the first killed.
If you get past that, you have options.
Escape is good. Particularly if you have people with you that you care about. Get them out.
I’m probably going after him though. 35 years as a cop. Hard to stop that instinct.
If all you have is a Chief Special, you might have to hunker down and wait for a lull. A reload, gun jams whatever and close the gap to within range of your capabilities.
Work on accuracy and long range shooting. I can hit an IDPA target at 100 yards. Reliably, with a (very) good 1911.
He is looking for people to shoot close by. If you are behind a pillar snipe him. He wont know where it’s coming from. 50-75 yards, you are invisible to him.
I have the advantage of identifying myself as a cop, convincing the first uniform I see I’m a fellow good guy and sticking with him through the end.
Running about with a gun in an active shooter is about as dangerous as it gets.
If you’re going to engage, you want to be the one yelling “drop the gun, stop shooting people!” And, get that gun out of your hand before uniforms arrive.
It’s far from a perfect plan. But, having a few options to run through before it happens makes it easier to process when it does happen.
I’ve pondered carrying a 6” S&W 66. It’s like a mini carbine if you’re good with it. But, I doubt I will. It’s just too much work to carry and conceal in normal life.
No more revolvers for me for SD/HD. Purchased a 17 shot Beretta and my next buy will hopefully be a CX-4.
In my fantasy world after retirement I decided that I no longer needed a big honking SA because;
I didn't go out after dark normally,
I didn't carry cash,
I'm a big guy,
I didn't do anything illegal or immoral,
I didn't go into bad neighborhoods,
I own 7 dogs,
My house has bars,
I have an alarm system,
We have a pretty decent PD,
I'm a pretty good shot,
Crooks don't work alone,
Felons don't care,
Teen criminals think it's cool,
Mental illness abounds,
Guns are proliferate,
Criminals are stupid and can be expected to act illogically,
People in general are out of control.
Dirty Harry could do 16 takes on the Coffee Shop Scene, John Wayne shot blanks at tree limbs wired with explosives and Charles Bronson, Yul Brynner, and all the rest were actors.
I want an advantage, there is no such thing as a fair fight, there is winning and losing, life or death, health or disability .
I still hear my dad to this day, "Don't go down dark alleys and don't get caught up in a crowd." Even armed I listen to him.
I can't imagine any news event changing my CCW routine. Already I carry everywhere I can, and my AR or Bren 805 haven't magically shrunk down small enough to carry IWB. There's no way I can carry a rifle all the time like ol' Chuck Connors! Be a lot cooler if I did...
The issue is not equipment. A person with a even a snub couldve solved this issue. If equipment is your over all factor you need training. Don't care if you were military or police more training is always better than less.
Like saying the best driver in the world will lose the Indie 500 if he decides to drive a Ford Pinto but only because he needed more training.
I could carry a 5 shot that I shoot mediocre, a 6 shooter that I shoot well or a 15 shot SA that i shoot as well but have the luxury of a better grip, better sights, easier reloading capabilities, a rail system etc. Theres a reason professionals don't use revolvers and it's not because they lack proficiency but that a SA gives one a better edge and results are what counts, not playing the game. As for training, I've done mine, I'm not in the hero business anymore, I may not cut and run but I'm not sticking my neck out either, my opinion comes from my lessons, not an armchair and luck plays a bigger role than many think but if some guy thinks he's going to hunt me down in a library or supermarket he better think twice and if in the same pocket I can stuff a Jframe or a G19, you better believe that in this day and age it's a G19.
Just as an after thought, did you see all those cops shooting the antifa twerp with Jframes? Me neither.
What pros are you speaking of ? The same people whos shooting scores went down after the move to semi autos? Equipment is not nearly as important as training and mindset. A J frame would have done the job but it seems as if the people there didn't even have one. Your likely speaking from an armchair right now so don't give that tired argument that your experience trumps others. I don't care if you've "been there done that" the issue is would you do it again.
By the way, I'm not turning this thread to a semi vs revolver thread. We can start a new one or revive the zillion in archives. My point has been whatever the hell you carry, train with it and more importantly USE it if a situation like this presents itself in your presence
No changes for me. Same gun , same situational awareness and I don't go to places that I don't feel comfortable in.
That's the thing though. It's not happening in places you don't feel comfortable. This isn't happening in the alleyway in Brooklyn or Compton. It's happening when your wife and kids are at Walmart, When grandma is at the local farmers market, when your at Friday/Saturday/Sunday or whatever service. Situational awareness is a big deal but we cannot lower our guard in any area as there is no such thing as safe. Not even your home.
I'm still mostly going to carry my LCP or Shield depending on whether I want to pocket carry or go IWB. I have larger handguns as well but I know I'll consistently carry those two because I can do it comfortably and they both conceal well. Mass shootings get big headlines but the odds of being in one are still really small. Honestly as a civilian I'm not charging into a situation in most scenarios - the default is run, hide and fight in that order just like everybody else.
That is very understandable for any current or retired LEO or military trained person.
I am neither, so I'm interested in your thoughts on a few follow up comments I have. As a non-LEO, I have often thought that the best way for me to help as a CC permit holder in a situation like this is to look for the nearest exit in this situation, and try to usher anyone near me out the door, and cover them and myself. Afterwards, if I think a shooter is not near the exit I am at, maybe step back in and see if anyone else is coming by, and cover their escape as well. Or, cover the door I just exited, and if the shooter steps out, take shots at the individual from cover. I train for speed and defensive shooting at various distances, but I don't feel without specific training for this type of a scenario that me running toward a shooter and getting in the middle would actually be helpful. I picture myself just adding to the confusion and chaos as LE tries to stop the shooter, and maybe getting shot be LE myself. Additionally, my carry pistol is not going to have the same range or effectiveness as a rifle armed assailant.
If the shooter presents an opportunity, and I can take some well aimed shots, THEN I have a responsibility as a citizen to kill/injure the shooter so people can escape or the attack is stopped. I see my responsibility as more of a evacuation helper than an armed individual who should directly confront a shooter. I'm not wearing body armor, I'm under gunned, and I don't have the training, so help how I can.
And I guess that's my thoughts on it right there. I hear people in the gun culture promote the idea of "Well dang it people need to have courage and run towards the problem and stop it." To me it sounds like poorly thought out hero fantasy ideas. "How many lives could have been saved in the theater shooting in CO years ago if people had been armed?" I picture a lot of these situations being made far worse if everyone has a vigilante/hero mindset. I think opportunities to evacuate potential victims should be taken. I think opportunistic surprise attacks on an active shooter should be taken. I believe covering exits until LE shows up should happen.
I don't necessarily think a bunch of pistol carrying untrained folks running into rifle fire is going to result in a better outcome in a lot of cases.
I only saw one interview where a guy said he had a gun on him. He mentioned something about drawing it, but then getting away from the area. I never saw that clip again to get a better idea of what he said.
I'm also will to get that a large percentage of people in that mall were not citizens and would not legally have guns.
I hadnt seen that clip either. As of my understanding it was the Walmart not the mall. If people are not engaging there is no point to carrying a gun, that's my view and I'll stick to it. Regarding the citizenship of the people there, I cant comment on that. Im sure there was a few who don't belong here however that also doesn't warrant them getting killed like roadkill in the street. There was a story if a couple shielding their baby from harm and ended up dying, a man saw that and threw coke cans against the shooter in an attempt to draw fire away from the kid and the man was shot instead. Both he and the babe lived. That man had more cajones without a gun then people here who carry but say they wouldn't fight.
I basically agree with 460 Shooter. The reason I carry is to protect me and my family, not someone else. If you are not willing to protect you and your family don't expect me to put my family in jeopardy for you.
People were there pointing phones at the guy watching him kill people, imagine if those hands were filled with 9mms and .38s. As far as I know (and if theres others go ahead and list them) only two people did something one of saved a little boy and the other saved several children. If you have the capability to stop something and you don't your just as guilty as that guy with the AK no ands, ifs, or buts. You can get your family to safety and then engage. I don't know about you but I'm the one out and about most times so it's me alone and I only worry about the threat, but to not engage and seeing people die I don't know how a person would be able to live with themselves.
Amateurs talk equipment. Professionals talk tactics. sgt127's post has much truth in it. The best time to get the 'what if's' out of the way is before something happens. Be observant and conscious of your surroundings; Cover, concealment. Keep a running 'what if' scenario going (in your mind) in those situations where you are at unease in public situations. If you're in the kill zone when the shooting starts, you better have thought about your reaction before hand. I know what mine will be. Flank and attack with VOA. Dang Army training.
If I were to get shot and killed or injured by someone with a gun trying to save someone who won't try to save themselves, then my family suffers.
And if you don't someone else suffers. There is a risk and a big one at that and no one here is denying that, but if you nothing body counts are higher we've seen that
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