I am not a fan of 1911s.

[albanian]

I have owned several of them and they were all reliable and well made but they just don't do it for me. It seems like these are the guns that everyone eventually comes back to and all the old timers love but I just don't see what is so special about them.

If you want a .45 caliber target gun, there is not much choice but a 1911. They still make great target guns but for CCW or home defense, there are many better choices out there.

Here are the things I don't like about them.

1. SA only. It means you have to have a manual safety lever which is one more thing to think about under stress. It also gets knocked off when carried concealed. No second strike capabilty like a true DA has. If you get a dud, pulling the trigger a second time does not help. The only problems I have had with high quality factory ammo were hard primers or too soft of hammer strikes. Every time a second pull of the trigger fired the round.

2. Manual safety. Hate them. It is old school and it is bad school. Your safety should be your mind and your trigger. A DA revolver doesn't have a safety and doesn't need a safety. A SIG doesn't have a safety and doesn't need a safety.

3. Weight. In this day and age, why are they still making pistol this stinking heavy? For CCW, it is just to heavy.

4. Capacity. For how big these are, they don't hold much ammo.

5. Cost. To get a good one, you have to pay top dollar. You can buy great production guns like SIGs for far less than a Kimber and they do everything as well or better.

6. Pointabilty. The 1911 points low unless you crank your wrist up. Most people have learned to shoot it but it is not natural.

7. High bore axis. They sit too high in the hand.

8. Reliabilty. While I have not had any problems in this area, it is well known that the 1911 in general is not as reliable as other designs. The military replaced the 1911 in favor of a much more reliable pistol (the Beretta M-9). I forget the exact rounds between jams in the military tests but the Beretta and other modern designs were clearly much more reliable. I think they are more reliable by design. Berettas and SIGs just go more rounds without jamming than 1911s.

Why do people still carry these as self defense guns when there are so many better choices? Why do people trust them when they are not known to be the most reliable design you can get?

I am not bashing the 1911 because it has a place in my collection and in gun games and target work. It just seems like for CCW or HD, you should be picking something better. In fact, when I hear that someone uses a 1911 for CCW, I often wonder why. I don't see the advantage to them so someone please let me know why they still are so popular for CCW.

 

[Geno]

For me, I have many opposite experiences from those described here.

In fact, I shoot a 1911 better (more accurate and consistently accurate) than ANY other pistol save for the Contender or Encore. Apples and oranges all the same, right?

My rationale, according to my CCW instructor, on average, a defender in a self-defense shoot-out launches about 2.5 rounds before someone is dead or running away. Ergo, my Colts or Kimber Warrior each capable of 10 +1 are so much more than adequate.

Last night, for example, I carried my Warrior with 10 +1 on the right, and my Glock 17 with 19 + 1 cross draw on the left. I had 4 magazines for each pistol on me as well (9mms = 80 rounds in reserve; .45 ACP = 40 rounds in reserve, plus 20 plus 11. Was I loaded up sufficiently?

To be certain, I TEST my firearms extensively before using for concealed carry. If it experiences failures, I have it corrected before using. I only like my Glock in case I need a large amount of rounds to "hold out" until the police arrive to rescue me (my family). My Glock 17 "America's Heroes" is equally accurate, but it doesn't point as-naturally for me. The Colts and Warrior do.

So, for me, it comes down to two simple considerations: (1) which one pistol goes from holster to "in-the-face" fastest and most reliability? That goes to my right side. (2) Which pistol holds mega-rounds, is equally reliable, and can be used from behind protective cover? Glock 17...goes to my left for cross draw. And yes, I do have MANY 33 round magazines for the G17. Depending on what I am wearing and where I am going I have carried some 33 round magazines in the briefcase.

In closing, I truly enjoyed this thread. I like when someone challenges me, that is to say, makes me present a rationale and common sense rather than simple emotion of preference. This will be a great thread.

Doc2005

 

[Kman]

1911's

Funny I think the same thing about the cars I drive,,,,Seriously though, it's just personal preferance.

 

[ruger270man]

I agree. The 1911 points low for me as well, when I bring it up naturally I cant even see the front sight.

I also find them quite unattractive..

is it weird that I think a Glock looks better than a 1911?

I do however like the looks of an all-black 1911, like the Kimber LAPD model.

 

[Kman]

Loaded!!!

DOC, where the he.. are you hanging out! Baghdad??

 

[Croyance]

2.) Seems more about your like of SA/DA or safe action. Whatever does it for you, but when I grip a 1911 out of the holster, my thumb rests on the safety catch.

3.) 32 ounces is not heavy. That is the weight of an aluminum framed 1911, same as the weight of its competitors.

4.) I've never been a capacity guy. If I haven't resolved things before I need a reload, my day has taken an even worse turn for the worse. I've been about location, location, location.
Capacity and concealability are inversely related.

5.) Sigs cost less than Kimbers? Not from what I've seen. Though it it true that Kimbers and Springfields have offererings in different price ranges.

6.) Similar grip angle to the Sig that you mention, H&K, Beretta. It is the Glock that has an un-natural grip angle.

7.) Sigs have more muzzle flip in my experience.

Use what you like. Prefer what you want. I just don't see the truth in your postings.

 

[nitesite]

Why do people still carry these as self defense guns when there are so many better choices? Why do people trust them when they are not known to be the most reliable design you can get?

Well, I guess we could go back and read why LAPD SWAT and FBI HRT wanted to use it. Or talk with dozens upon dozens of Federal, municipal and county agencies who already have, or are about to, allow their officers to revert back to the 1911. Glock leads the industry in offering huge discount incentives to departments, with SIG not far behind. I'm not so sure that 1911 makers can sell in the same price range as them ($300-375 per unit). Perhaps those discounts are at least partially the impetus for large department purchases.

I am not bashing the 1911 because it has a place in my collection and in gun games and target work. It just seems like for CCW or HD, you should be picking something better.

What if that's what I have utmost confidence in? It's an individual choice. Would you like for me to suggest that "you should be picking something better" for your HD shotgun or rifle and tell you why I don't personally prefer your choice? Where would that get me?

In fact, when I hear that someone uses a 1911 for CCW, I often wonder why. I don't see the advantage to them so someone please let me know why they still are so popular for CCW.

It may not be that there is an "advantage" to having a 1911, but it carries flat and has adequate firepower. Heck, sometimes I CCW with only a 5-shot S&W 442. Would you suggest that it too should be replaced?

Oh.... They can be individualized to suit their owner, far beyond what one can do to a SIG or Glock.

Your observations are your own. This one should go to triple-digit replies!

 

[albanian]

"Would you like for me to suggest that "you should be picking something better" for your HD shotgun or rifle and tell you why I don't personally prefer your choice?"

I wouldn't mind it if you were giving me good advice and had good reasons. I am allways willing to learn. If for example, I used a old single shot shotgun with a 30" tube and you suggested that a nice Remington 870 with 18" barrel might be "better", why wouldn't I want to listen? If you gave me reasons why it was better and I saw that you were on to something, I would probably give it a try. If I found that it really was better, not only would I switch what I used for home defense but I would thank you for pointing me in the right direction and helping me choose something that was better suited for the job.

I just can't understand why 1911s are so popular. If that is what you learned to shoot with and that was what you were used to, I can see it but I can't see why someone would choose a 1911 over all the other guns on the market if they had a choice. Is it just that they fit people's hands better? Is it that they can shoot them better? They don't feel great in my hand but they feel okay and I can shoot them okay but not great. Maybe that is what is wrong with me. I actually shoot Beretta and Glocks better than I shoot 1911s.

 

[Tokugawa]

The 1911 points low? POINTS LOW??!!! Of course it points low, thats why the army specified that the arched mainsping housing be adopted. Colt manufactured it this way for 70 years, or so, and then the JMBIG (John Moses Browning is God) groupies decided it was heresy and convinced every gun mag in the world that flat mainspring housings were the mark of truely savvy gun experts and now we are faced with a host of factory clones that point low. Find any new 1911 and you will likely find (Iam sure there are SOME exceptions) that they use a flat mianspring housing. (and they all point low!!!)
Reliability? Do not wast your time with a "fancy", decked out 1911. Buy the worn ,old beater, cause you are likely going to have to get it tuned anyway.
Guns are no different than ,say, ski's, cars or audio equipment. Every year, the manufacturers have to come out with a new, sexy model to convince the public to spend thier hard earned money on the latest, greatest thing. In most cases, the "improvement", is ,if we ae lucky, small. If we are unlucky, we go backwards.
(I am in training for being a curmugeonly old codger, am I doing well?

 

[nitesite]

albanian-

This is why this thread could go on for along time. We're being calm and in each our own way quite rational.

You may notice that nowhere in my post do I claim to carry a 1911 as a primary carry gun. My experience with Glock .45s has been quite positive. I appreciate SIG pistols for being accurate and of extremely high quality, yet I just don't do that well on fast follow-up shots with them.

I was just joining in the friendly conversation. And yes, I agree that if I/we can help fellow shooters to be better equipped then a "thank you" is nice to hear.

But really, the analogy of a single-shot shotgun compared to a repeater is stretching a bit. The disparity between the two is HUGE. That is like saying that a person carrying a 1911 is at a huge and distinct disadvantage, which I do not believe is the case.

 

[Ky Larry]

You have no idea how little I care about what you, or anyone else, carries. I'll bet my a$$ on my Kimber. You bet yours on whatever you like. Have a nice evening.

 

[Majic]

If you have personally owned several 1911s and haven't had any reliability problems with any of them then how can you talk of the pistol being unreliable? On one hand you have definative proof with your pistols, on the other hand you have stories, tales, and gossip. You close your eyes to what have been proven to you and go with the stories you hear from others.

 

[1911 guy]

I dissagree

I carry a 1911 because it carries slim in a good holster, I have no reliability issues with mine, it holds 8 rounds of a formidable cartridge, points just fine for me as I don't like the grip angle on the "newer and better" designs, has a manual safety that I prefer to the ND prone Glock and similar ilk, beavertail safety that allows it to sit quite low in my hand, and I paid less than 400 clams for a "phillipino beer can" that has yet to hiccup or stall in several thousand rounds. Now that my endless sentence is over, it boils down to personal prefference. I preffer what I am familiar and competent with. If your tastes and skills run to another line, so be it. I'm just wondering why there is such a hue and cry to discredit the 1911 just because there are newer things out there. New is not necessarily better.

 

[yorec]

I am not a fan of 1911s.

Sucks to be you, buddy.

Really - eveyone has to have his own opinions. Nice when they are the sort to bring them out for everyone to poke at and make fun of...

 

[english kanigit]

Arrgh, these threads just won't die.


You guys must be gluttons for punishment.

 

[artherd]

I say use what works. I like 1911s, but I'd not feel great about carrying a gun c&l's with enough energy present in the hammer to detonate a round should anything fail. (so I carry a Glock or Sig or other DA.)

I love the 1911 at the range though, great gun.

That said, the HK USP Elite .45 is more accurate in my hands.

I guess I dig 1911s, mostly because of the lore, the novel and still very useful design, and the fact that they are rather thin.


I do not like the lack of capacity, possibility albit remote for the gun to detonate a round by itself should a sear fail, and sometimes questionable reliability with real ammo.

 

[g1726]

You make some interesting observations, so please allow me to help enlighten some of your "wonderments". When trying to figure out why someone would do something, take a walk in their shoes and try to find the benefits rather than just entertaining the failings.

1. Many like the consistent trigger pull and that the sometimes, all-important first shot has a nice and relatively light trigger pull. That could come in handy if your advesary is 25 yards away, partly behind cover. That's just one rather unrealistic scenario, but I like to plan for the worst, not the average.

2. The manual safety is just part of the package. Even with the manual safety off, you still have to depress the grip safety and the trigger to fire. I was unnerved by this as well, until my father gave me an unloaded, but cocked 1911 without the thumb safety on and let me throw it around on the carpet a little bit. It never dropped the hammer. That being said, one should always apply the thumb safety and learn to use it. After a very short amount of time, wiping the thumb safety off is second nature. If you plan on carrying one and practice like you probably should, it will be very natural.

3. Try an alloy framed 1911 or even one of the STI polymer lowered guns.

4. This is either the Holy Grail or a non-issue. I wouldn't be concerned because 7 rounds is quite a bit of shooting with a handgun, especially in a home defense or concealed carry situation. On the plus side, extra 1911 mags are one of the easiest to carry and conceal, surpassed only by single stack, smaller caliber mags (SW 3913, Makarov, PPK, etc.)

The converse of this is width of the handgun. The 1911's thin, rounded slide conceals extremely well when carried IWB. The thin grips make for an equally nice package when concealing.

5. To get the "latest and greatest", yes they are expensive. To get a good, reliable handgun will not cost you more than most. And if you really like it and perform well with it, cost is not an issue. More important, is that if you practice regularly, the cost of the gun is rather insignificant. Ammo cost is what drives up the cost of my shooting hobby far more than gun cost.

To borrow a quote from the Brownells catalog, "It's unwise to pay too much...but it's worse to pay too little. If you pay too much, you lose a little money...that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. It can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better." - John Ruskin

I'm not saying that there aren't great pistols at a lesser cost than even basic 1911's, because there are. I'm just saying, if the difference is a few hundred dollars, don't worrry about it. You can cancel your cable, not go to a sporting event, etc. and make up the difference real quick. Cost is not a realistic issue when it comes to defending my family. I'm not rolling in the big bucks either. I just place my priorities different than others.

6. As others said, try an arched mainspring housing.

7. The bore axis is rather high, this I admit. Find me a hammer fired pistol that does much better. You say you prize second-strike capability in a pistol. Well that narrows the field to hammer fired pistols and some may be a bit better, but they're all far behind Glocks or HK P7's concerning bore axis height.

8. Reliability is great with a quality manufactured and well maintained pistol. This goes for anything. A friend of mine had a few problems with his Glock 27. He informed me that he'd put about 4000 rounds through the gun without changing magazine or recoil springs and without cleaning the lower receiver. Strangly enough, the trigger was gritty and there were misfeeds. After rolling my eyes, we put new in new mag springs, a new recoil spring and cleaned the lower. All problems have disappeared miraculously and he's now at about 6000 rounds total.

It's sometimes a bit tougher with the 1911 design, since there are so many manufacturers who have made them with varying tolerances, parts, etc. If you have a box stock, all Colt, Kimber, SA, Para-Ordnance, etc. full size or Commander length pistol, they rarely have problems. But when you begin to mess with them, problems appear. Conincidence? I think not.


I'm not trying to convince anyone to their superiority, these are some reasons for why others like them and live with them every waking hour of every day.

All that being said, I don't own one and probably won't for quite some time. I have shot about 5000 rounds total through 4 of them and throughly enjoyed it. But I've found that another controversial pistol suits me just fine for now. I will probably own a house and/or ranch before a 1911, those are just my priorities in life. So for now a Glock is fine by me.

 

[BluesBear]

1. Since my mainspring is in spec I have yet needed to worry about a primer not firing. If it ever does I'll just pull back on that big wide hammer spur and have another go.

2. EVERY auto pistol should have a manual safety whether is needs one or not.
If your 1911 safety "accidentally" disengages itself either it's defective or you need to look at what you're doing to activate it.

3. Heavy? If a 1911 is too heavy or too large then perhaps you're too much of a whimp to carry a pistol. Better get yourself one of those scantium sissy revolvers.

4. If you need more than eight before you can find hard cover to reload then you ass is in too deep for a handgun.

5. I've never paid more than $600 for a 100% reliable 1911 pattern pistol.

6. The flat mainspring housing works perfectly for me which is why I have been using them for over 30 years now. Which is back when only the Gold Cup came that way. Try the arched housing it's a five minute swap.

7. Yet they sit lower than several of the models you prefer?

8. In the military trials the 1911 experienced NO failures. Of course they only fired it 6000 times. My current Colt has surpassed that amount without a single failure. How much more reliable than 100% can there be? You even admit you have had no reliability problems.

They still make great target guns but for CCW or home defense, there are many better choices out there.

For you perhaps but not for me and at least a few others.

Why do people still carry these as self defense guns when there are so many better choices?

I haven't found anything better. I'm glad you have.

Why do people trust them when they are not known to be the most reliable design you can get?

Reread my #8.

I am not bashing the 1911...

Yes you are.

It just seems like for CCW or HD, you should be picking something better. In fact, when I hear that someone uses a 1911 for CCW, I often wonder why. I don't see the advantage to them so someone please let me know why they still are so popular for CCW.

Why? You won't understand. You've already made up your mind. Why did you even start this thread? Or do you have doubts about your gun of choice?


It would appear that for some, no explanation is required... for others, no explanation will do. (Baba Louie THR 09/29/03)

 

[Shootcraps]

I agree with Kanigit. This is one of the Threads from Hell that needs to die. Along with "Help me choose a 1911", and "Is Wolf ammo bad for my gun".

All of the rivers you cried have been discussed ad nauseum and can be researched with the search function.

 

[nitesite]

albanian~~ Just so you know...

My primary carry gun for CCW is a Springfield Armory 1911. At work it's about 18" from my right knee all day long. At night is rests beside my bed. When driving it is comfortingly wedged beside me. When walking my property it is oftentimes in a pancake holster.

8+1 in .45ACP is a good feeling to have.

 

[DirksterG30]

Why I carry the 1911 for CCW

One of my carry guns is a 1911; it replaced my Glock 30. For me I find is is easier to grip (the Glock felt like a 2x4), points better, it is overall a thinner gun (easier to conceal), and I like the single-action trigger much better than the Glock trigger. It is a great gun with lots of history behind it, and mine had 1 stovepipe during break-in (even my Glock did that!), and flawless since then (over 1200 rounds last count.)

As for your objections, Albanian:
1. I think second-strike capability is overrated. I've never had any problems with .45 rounds not firing at the first strike. Glocks don't have second-strike capability, either. So I guess you don't want to carry any gun that's not DAO or DA/SA? Again, that's your preference.

2. The manual safety - that's necessary on a single-action gun. When I draw my 1911 from the holster, my thumb is resting on the safety. It takes no effort to make the gun ready to fire. If you hate safetys, that's fine, but they work for thousands of other shooters.

3. Weight - My 1911 is all stainless; the weight doesn't bother me. If you want to carry a lighter gun, fine. If you have a good holster and belt, it's a non-issue.

4. Capacity - how many guns that size carry more than 8-11 .45 rounds? For CCW, I think the 8 rounds I carry in my 1911 will do the job; if not, I carry a spare mag.

5. Cost - in my area, Sigs are pretty expensive; my 1911 was about the same price as a Sig. You can also get a good 1911 for less than the price of the Sig (I guess how the price of another gun compares to a Sig determines if it is too expensive?)

6. Pointability - my 1911 has a flat mainspring housing, and it points just fine for me. If it didn't, I could always change it to an arched mainspring housing. Try doing that with a Sig!

7. High bore axis - this is not a problem for me, or many other shooters for that matter.

8. Reliability - I am not convinced by your assertion that "it is well known that the 1911 in general is not as reliable as other designs." My 1911 has been as reliable as my Glock 30, CZ P-01 and 40-P. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the 1911 design. While some people have problems with their 1911's, the same could be said of Glocks, Berettas (especially in Iraq & Afghanistan), and Sigs.

Let's not forget that the 1911 is very customizable as well - I can change the mainspring housing, get thinner wood grips, rubber grips, change the grip safety, get a different thumb safety... There are thousands of accessories, holsters... available for 1911's, probably more than for any other gun.

 

[McNutt]

1. SA Only - For me this is a major plus. SA gives me the quickest and most accurate shot. I love the consistent trigger pull I get with a 1911. You say that the thumb safety gets deactivated too easily, but I'd say you don't have a good thumb safety.

2. Manual safety - I can understand why people might not like them, but once you become accustomed to it there is no delay due to deactivating the safety. It becomes instinct. Plus it allows for the best trigger around.

3. Weight - There are many lightweight 1911's with excellent reliability. Plus the weight of a 1911 helps keep the gun pointed at your target. Personally I can't stand shooting lightweight polymer guns.

4. Capacity - You can get them to hold plenty of rounds as long as you don't mind the width. 7-8 rd 1911s are incredibly thin and are easy to conceal.

5. Cost - Getting a good one does not cost you a ton of money. My two 1911s cost $650 and $430. That's not expensive for two guns that have never had a failure of any kind.

6. Pointability - The 1911 has the best pointability for me of any handgun. One of mine has an arched MSH and the other does not. Both point like champs. I thought I was a bad shot until I bought my first 1911. I realized it was the other guns that were making me look bad.

7. High bore axis - Personal opinion, but they sit just right for me.

8. Reliability - Again, my 1911s have been 100% reliable. It doesn't get any better than that.

I respect your opinion, but I don't feel you've given any reasons why the 1911 is inferior overall for CCW. It might not work for you, but that doesn't mean it's an inferior design. I can't stand Glocks and wouldn't choose one for CCW, but I can see why others would. They're good guns, just as many 1911s are good guns. I don't think a shooter accustomed to his Glock or Sig would have any advantage over a shooter accustomed to his 1911.

 

[gc70]

"I am not a fan of 1911s"

I'm glad for you. Now don't buy any more... and sell the ones you have so that people who appreciate them can have them.

And, yes, you are bashing 1911s. Are you happy now?

 

[Old Dog]

I am not a fan of 1911s.

A much better thread title when posted on Glocktalk or SIGForum ... but no sympathy here for you, my friend ...

Althoug BluesBear's post corresponds to my thoughts in response to Albanian's thread, this is what really nails it:

It would appear that for some, no explanation is required... for others, no explanation will do.

 

[Animal]

1. SA only. It means you have to have a manual safety lever which is one more thing to think about under stress. It also gets knocked off when carried concealed. No second strike capabilty like a true DA has. If you get a dud, pulling the trigger a second time does not help. The only problems I have had with high quality factory ammo were hard primers or too soft of hammer strikes. Every time a second pull of the trigger fired the round.

Drills and practice take care of this, also been carrying a 1911 for a while now and never had the safety come off, even if it did, that's why there is a grip safety. And I LOVE SA triggers, consistant and sweet.

2. Manual safety. Hate them. It is old school and it is bad school. Your safety should be your mind and your trigger. A DA revolver doesn't have a safety and doesn't need a safety. A SIG doesn't have a safety and doesn't need a safety.

See #1

3. Weight. In this day and age, why are they still making pistol this stinking heavy? For CCW, it is just to heavy.

Aluminum framed officer models are only 20 something oz, that's not too much for me and I ain't a big guy.

4. Capacity. For how big these are, they don't hold much ammo.

True, better practice reloads, or practice hitting with your first shots

5. Cost. To get a good one, you have to pay top dollar. You can buy great production guns like SIGs for far less than a Kimber and they do everything as well or better.

Got a buddy who paid $600 something for a new Sig, I got a new Ultra Carry for $630

6. Pointabilty. The 1911 points low unless you crank your wrist up. Most people have learned to shoot it but it is not natural.

Personal preference, It's perfect for me, but if I pick up a Glock I have to crank down on my wrist and it's very uncomfortable for me to shoot

7. High bore axis. They sit too high in the hand.

Again, personal preference

8. Reliabilty. While I have not had any problems in this area, it is well known that the 1911 in general is not as reliable as other designs. The military replaced the 1911 in favor of a much more reliable pistol (the Beretta M-9). I forget the exact rounds between jams in the military tests but the Beretta and other modern designs were clearly much more reliable. I think they are more reliable by design. Berettas and SIGs just go more rounds without jamming than 1911s.

Not the M-9s I've shot, most military people would rather ditch the M-9 and go back to the 1911. My full sized 1911 has never had a malfunction and after a short break-in neither has my UCII

Why do people still carry these as self defense guns when there are so many better choices? Why do people trust them when they are not known to be the most reliable design you can get?

Because for some people there is no better choice, and if you get a quality peice and train with it a 1911 will hold it's own with any of those others.