Omaha - What Went Wrong And Whose Fault Is It?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I agree, except high on the blame list I'd add the gun owner. Let's not pretend like all gun owners are perfect or that all gun owners "get it" because some just don't. This gun owner was irresponsible if a kid stole his rifle so easily. We need to police ourselves within the gun community so that the government doesn't.
 
JakeMcCoy, I disagree.

I am against 'mandatory' locks/safes, like CA requires. That is just another brady bunch goal, to make guns unusable in emergancies.

Now the lady who let the scumbag regularly target shoot on her land... no way she did not know the kid was a fruitloops felon. And she saw him with the murder weapon the day before the murders. Under current law, if she had acted the event might have never occured.
 
Who is at fault?

1) Hawkins (the shooter)
2) Simon Malls (created a shooting gallery with no CCW signs)
3) Mall Security (not able to secure the assailant)
4) The Sheeple (for not demanding their 2A rights)
5) Politicians (for creating laws that place targets on the sheeple)
The list will continue until someone stands up and says I will not be a victim, I will be part of the solution.:cuss:
 
Hi dave,

I don't think you read my post closely. That's ok. I don't expect anyone to read for real. It's just the Internet.

Mandatory regulations are exactly what I'm trying to prevent. Reread my post. Read my sig line too.

I mean that we (The People) need to get pissed at ourselves (The People) so that the government doesn't.

For example, when I see a shooter being unsafe at the range, I wouldn't lobby for a government regulation to prevent the danger, but I would take the opportunity to correct the shooter.

For another example, if you, as a gun owner, had this fvck up floating around your house and you didn't secure your guns, I would take any opportunity to tell you to be more responsible so that stupid massacres like this don't happen with your gun and so that the government doesn't regulate me because of your aloofness.

Further, if one of my kids were killed because this gun owner was too lazy to buy a safe or lock it, I'd probably be doing quite a bit more than merely telling the gun owner, "Try to be more responsible next time."

A gun is tremendous power. With tremendous power comes tremendous responsibility. When gun owners start acting holier than thou, like we don't need correction, it worries me.

Regards,
Jake McCoy
 
Last edited:
5) Was diognosed as ADHA (I'm guessing the drug ritalin might have been prescribed at one point -- which is basically speed/coke).

No, it's not, but he could be on any number of prescription anti-despression/anxiety/ADHD/Aspergers that may have triggered such a psychotic break. Erowid.org if you want information on the differences between speed, coke, and Ritalin (Methylphenidate).
 
JakeMcCoy: you're assuming facts not in evidence.

If the guns were locked in his home, and the scumbag did not have free access to them, then the gunowner was responsible.

If scumbag did a B&E, just like any other badguy, then it's just par for the course.

I'm guessing the reason scumbag did a B&E on stepdad was because scumbag knew there were guns there. That's a STRONG argument for not allowing newspaper to publish "rob me lists" (aka, a list of names/address for all CCW holders). It's just giving badguys a shopping list.

So at this time I would not add the gunowner to the list. If it comes out that the kid had a key to the home AND the guns were not in a safe... then I'd revisit it.
 
dave,

If you're correct, I agree. However, you're assuming just as many facts as I am. Given the attitude of many gun owners, it's more likely that an irresponsible gun owner is at hand. I'm not buying that this snot nose kid had an opportunity to B&E (crack a safe) and practice with this rifle without the gun owner going nuts and tracking him down. If the kid had the combo to the safe, I blame that on the gun owner too.

Let's pretend we're talking amongst the gun owner family here, without anti-gun people around. I don't know about your family, but my family self-corrects irresponsible behavior so that outsiders don't.

-Jake
 
I agree, except high on the blame list I'd add the gun owner. Let's not pretend like all gun owners are perfect or that all gun owners "get it" because some just don't. This gun owner was irresponsible if a kid stole his rifle so easily.
I agree, except high on the blame list I'd add the rape victim. Let's not pretend like all rape victims are perfect or that all rape victims "get it" because some just don't. This rape victim was irresponsible if a rapist violated her so easily.

It's not the rape victim's fault for not being a self-defense guru and kicking the snot out of her attacker.

The gun owner is responsible because he was a victim of robbery/burglary? Personally speaking, my house isn't Fort Knox and I'm not home or awake 24/7 to protect my guns. Do a search here on THR or on You Tube to see how easily a residential security container (a common "safe") is breeched.
 
Speaking of accuracy, all the talking heads here are calling the weapon, which was an SKS a AK-47.....talk about an adjenda! It is painfully obvious they are trying yet again to get the whole assault weapons ban started up again in a knee jerk way.
 
Hook686:

hmmmmm even over looking that the guy that unveils his AK, or SKS and begins shooting, if a decent shot, will drop a half dozen, or more before any CCW present can pull their gun.

It took the off-duty LEO at the mall in Utah three minutes to locate the shooter and engage him. At least we know after that point, the shooter engaged no one else. He is credited with saving many others by his actions. One point that was brought out in the news coverage was that the SWAT teams in Omaha responded so quickly because they were assembled and mobile for President Bush's visit to Omaha that day. If they hadn't been, what would their response time have been? Maybe more like 15 or 20 instead of 5? I'll take any number of CCW holders right now over the best SWAT team in the world 5 minutes too late.


I'm thinking then you might have dozens of CCW holders shooting each other, when they individually are not fully aware of what actually is happening ... most will only see the gore and hear the gunfire. What are you going to do when you hear several shots, look up and see a guy with his gun drawn, firing, while two, or three folks lay before him in a pool of blood ?


Dozens? I think you vastly overestimate the number of CCW holders in the general population. Overall, I think it's roughly 1 to 2 percent in states that have had it for a few years. In Nebraska? probably more like one tenth of a percent. That would hardly equal dozens present at the scene.

That brings us to the other point you made. If I saw a guy shooting with bodies around him and gunfire coming from somewhere else, I'd probably look at what he was shooting at before I shot at him. The other point is that in a situation where it's pistols against a rifle, there would be little chance of missing the fact that someone else was shooting. You must think CCW holders are a bunch of dummies, right? Admit it, you're just a liberal troll, aren't you? :evil:
 
After the recent mall shootings the media want to blame it all on those evil guns.
But guns did not do it. A gun is a tool just like a camera or a printing press.
My view is that most of the blame here needs to go squarely on the News Media.
After a tragedy like a mall shooting or school shooting the Media take the pictures and names of these sick murderers and broadcast them all over the world making them famous. And tell what a hard life they had and so on.
I think when something like this happens the name and picture of the people should not be shown to the public. They should not be made famous they should be defamed as the sick losers they are. That way the next sick person in crisis might get help or just quietly take there own life all alone somewhere. They should not be able to die with there last words being “ I’m going to be famous “ I’m going out in stile”.
I know there is freedom of speech in this county but making these people famous is like hollering fire in a movie theater. It is just plain wrong.
 
Where's the robbery/burglary rumor coming from?

"Stole" does not equal burglary or robbery. If you walk into my house as a guest, see a quarter on the counter and take it, that's neither a robbery nor a burglary; you stole the quarter. If the kid walked into his stepfather's house, sees the rifle in the corner and walks off with it, that's neither a robbery nor a burglary; the kid stole the rifle. That's likely what happened, which is more likely than some nonsense about a robbery/burglary. Show me the police report on that one. The gun owner's level of responsibility was not where it should have been.

Also, where did the analogy to rape come from? That's totally demeaning to rape victims.

I'm totally against government regulations, but sometimes I actually understand where anti-gun folks are coming from. It's like some gun owners think they can do no wrong: "I can have my guns unsecured with delinquents walking around, and if you don't like, fvck you man!"
 
Quote: Take as careful a shot as you can, then make it absolutely clear that you are a friendly. That's really all you can do.

CZ42, How do you suggest to do that. After all, most BGs don't wear shirts announcing, "Hi, I'm the Killer".

Imagine John Doe is in the mall. He has a CCW, say a XD 45. He hears shots.
You hear shots. You happen to have identified the BG and are returning fire, and BG is going down, just as John Doe targets YOU and thinks HE has identified the rapscallion terrorizing the mall and fires on you, sure he's in the right and the paper will run a story about what a hero he is.
While he is trying to write his name in the annals of history, police arriving see John Doe firing and do the same.
I can see that turning sour real quick.
I don't exactly know what I would do, but if possible, I will probably seek cover until I can identify who the players are. I don't have a shirt annoucing "Hi, I'm the good guy", so I would try not to get involved unless I had eyeballs on the guy first whipping out his hardware.
Malls are very crowded and the risks are more than I really would like to take unless I am forced into it.
They do offer many places to conceal yourself.
Do you see what I mean?
 
"Stole" does not equal burglary or robbery. If you walk into my house as a guest, see a quarter on the counter and take it, that's neither a robbery nor a burglary; you stole the quarter. If the kid walked into his stepfather's house, sees the rifle in the corner and walks off with it, that's neither a robbery nor a burglary; the kid stole the rifle. That's likely what happened, which is more likely than some nonsense about a robbery/burglary.
You're right. According to Nebraska statutes, such a crime would be "theft by unlawful taking."

Theft, burglary, robbery... they still involve taking something that does not belong to you. Early reports (check THR for postings) stated the rifle was probably stolen from his stepfather.
 
Nebraska currently has just over 2500 CCW permit holders in a state with a population of about 1.8 million. To answer the statement about "dozens" of CCW permit holders shooting everywhere.
 
Good one, Hook686. I knew I was forgetting to post something... Yes the whole crossfire situation would be bad, but disciplined shooting would help overcome that. Take as careful a shot as you can, then make it absolutely clear that you are a friendly. That's really all you can do.

It's called situational awareness, and is the 3rd rule of gun handling (always be sure of your target). However, the bad guys don't always wear black hats, and the good guys don't always wear white hats. The tactical training you may be familiar with where you hold on red and shoot on white doesn't apply. Most surprise attacks achieve exactly that, and your situational awareness in that scenario will be somewhere around your ankles. Police are trained to coordinate their response, to confront the suspect with as many guns as possible pointed his way, but to fire only when the suspect makes a hostile action. A random sprinkling of CCWers will likely never have met each other and will have minimal coordination, will be in different places when the situation breaks out, and will likely fire without hesitation when presented with somebody else that has a gun out and is pulling the trigger.

In addition, when the police get there they won't know what the hell is going on; they'll have had dozens of stories about five guys with guns drawn and assume multiple gunmen. Hell, they made that mistake when Hawkins was the only armed man in the mall. You really do not want a SWAT team running in to see you holding a gun, especially if your knee-jerk reaction is to turn and face them.

Despite all that, I would rather have had 3 CCWers not knowing what was going on but prepared to defend themselves in seconds over 50 cops showing up 10 minutes after the first shot and taking another 15 to storm in.

A CHL holder would be useful even if he's not carrying at the time; he'll be more alert than those around him, and will be quicker to gather his wits. You can call non-carriers sheep, but that's a blessing in disguise; shouted orders are much more likely to be followed by scared people, so a CHL who takes in the situation will be able to get people to safety. In a mall, that's really easy; everyone gets into the stores (which give better cover than anything in the concourse as well as an escape route), have the managers close the gates (if they haven't skeddaddled already), and everybody gets out through the back door and the fire corridors.
 
Ahh the TV news just said that the scum had "previously made homicidal threats toward his stepmother."

At least we won't have to hear:

"Gee, he was such a nice young man, we NEVER saw this coming." :uke::

"He was just getting his life back together."

All code phrases for gang banging thug.
 
After watching all of this unfold, I'm a bit upset at the lack of accurate info that came henceforth.The 1st eyewitness stated the shooter stood out like sore thumb.Mall security was tracking him with CCTV, they reported that he entered the mall, left and returned six minutes later. Since they were unarmed there was little they do. Since, not a word has been spoken regarding their actions.All of this was on Foxnews within 15 minutes of the incident.I can only assume that someone put out a gag order!
 
Hook686 said....

Besides the mass crossfire that might be created, by people who react to the gunshots, hysteria, and falling bodies, I suspect letting folks carry when and where they want just gives more guys like Hawkins a loaded gun. How do you separate the nut cases ? What do you do with little old ladies, old men, the disabled ... carry a gun for them ?

This sounds suspiciously like the "blood will run in the streets" arguments. Interestingly enough in situations where a private citizen has intervened in such rampages...they've ended. The large casualty counts have repeatedly been in the situations where the criminal was unopposed. This isn't guesswork, this isn't pondering "what might happen", this is what has happened in fact.

It sounds to me like you believe you are ok, but don't think others are, else why the great need for a gun ? Kinda like, "I'm OK, but you are not."

Sounds to me more like having safety equipment, same as buckling on a seatbelt or installing fire alarms in your house.
 
First and foremost, the fault and blame are with the shooter. That is ALWAYS the case.
What else went wrong is Nebraska's stance on CCW, and the Mall's desire to make it a 'target rich enviroment'
Why do you think whack jobs target schools, hospitals, and the like. No one has a GUN there.
The fault lies between people that let a mall decide how and when they are able to defend themselves, and the mall management itself.
 
Can any of you guys that are wringing your hands over the "shootout" scenario give an example of anything remotely similar to your described result? I don't recall anything even close. It is not like every other shopper is armed.

T.Bracker
Nebraska currently has just over 2500 CCW permit holders in a state with a population of about 1.8 million.

Do you think these people were picked in a lottery to recieve permits? Of course not. They are competent, qualified,responsible people. The last thing they want is a gunfight.
 
Imagine John Doe is in the mall. He has a CCW, say a XD 45. He hears shots.
You hear shots. You happen to have identified the BG and are returning fire, and BG is going down, just as John Doe targets YOU and thinks HE has identified the rapscallion terrorizing the mall and fires on you, sure he's in the right and the paper will run a story about what a hero he is.
While he is trying to write his name in the annals of history, police arriving see John Doe firing and do the same.
I can see that turning sour real quick.

I recall asking what happened when Israeli CCWers engaged jihadis in shopping malls.

I think one guy's answer was "I arrived and knew that the bad guys were the ones shooting at women and children. The good guys were not. I shot the bad guy."
 
Looks like this would be a good time to pull out that shiny CC badge we've been hearing so much about..I'VE GOT A BADGE, DON'T SHOOT AT ME...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top