ccw at church

[bellyup039]

Well, I have had the honor of being in several weddings as a groom's man.

Each one, under my tux was a Walter ppks on a shoulder holster. Each of the groom's knew this and were all fine with it.

On my wedding, (dry reception) I had my Glock 39 under the tux. Wife to be knew it and was fine, Family knew and were fine, and several of the attendee's received a special invitation to " Not be naked at my wedding"



No problems at wedding.

 

[armedandsafe]

I respect the opinions of you guys, but for me, bringing a gun into a church just seems to negate the message they have. Loving thy neighbor and forgiveness and fearing no evil seem negated when you have a Glock under your coat.

I did not have to sell my cloak to obtain my Ruger. When going among the Gentiles, I carry.

(Just to clarify, I am not Jewish, I am Quaker.)

Pops

 

[Hungry Seagull]

A Church is not exactly a message. It is a House where you go to be with the Lord and to Fellowship with others of like mind so that everyone shall be stronger for the coming workweek filled with temptations, sin and evil.

Evil knows no bounds, but fears the light that is God. Any two, three or more people together in HIS name is a good thing. Unfortunately in today's society that appears to be changing seasons and moving towards the last days being armed is a necessary service to protect those brothers and sisters who may not otherwise be able to be also armed.

Is it not written that when a Soldier go into battle that he is totally committed to the coming fight? No wife with baby that will be born or no young children to worry about? If such exist, that soldier should be replaced with another to take his place so that there is no weakness to the whole in battle.

I find myself alone in Church with God and it may make some here not understand, but everyone of us has a relationship with Him. Sometimes having a mindset of a hunter to watch the sheep and catch the wolf trying to get to the herd is a good thing to have.

I went to a church once down in Lancaster Texas long ago and I recall that day's service like it just happened today. It was held in a humble church in one of the most run down neighborhoods you can think of. I had black clouds weighting on my spirit to and from that neighborhood from all the bad things around the area.

But within the Church was two hours of the most love, worship and happiness amid the most grinding poverty, language barriers and absolutely NO sign of evil anywhere in the building. We were able to forget for a short time our troubles and feast to celebrate on God's love and word to be strong for the journey.

I will never forget that one service.

I remember another service in Harrisburg PA, most certainly some of the drivers were rough men, strong stock and not exactly... clean if you see my thinking. But for a short time that trailer rang with songs of love, worship and devotion to family and God. Despite the fact that just outside in the dark there were bad things going on.

The churches I cannot stand to be around are the very large Mega Churches. There is just too many people, too many oppertunities for a bad guy to get in a few shots or more. I heard stories of a gaurd who stopped a bad guy dead before this person was able to get into the worship area itself holding hundreds of people. I cannot imagine to this day what this guard must feel and live with having to do what she did that day.

If such fat mega churches cannot, will not or wont provide for thier own security then darn it!!! Im going to. And just maybe I find Brothers and Sisters of Like Mind in the same building so that if anything does happen... we might have a fighting chance.

The State has no business telling a Church what to do or not to do but GOD has EVERY Business making sure that we worship according to our beliefs and obediance to HIM.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I respect the opinions of you guys, but for me, bringing a gun into a church just seems to negate the message they have. Loving thy neighbor and forgiveness and fearing no evil seem negated when you have a Glock under your coat.

Thats kind of a narrow interpretation. I fear no evil as Jesus has saved my SOUL. That is what is meant by, "you shall never perish" It doesn't mean I can't die in a car wreck, get murdered, or die of cancer. Do you really think the message stops at the door? Whats the difference if you in the church or in your house? God protects you in the church but not at home? God expects us to defend ourselves and to stand up against evil. He expects the strong to defend the week and I believe he expects the people, like ourselves, who are inclined to defend others to do so.
I would love to know where the Bible says I am supposed to be unarmed and defenseless against evil. If it says it I'll do it. Luckily it does not.
I'm not attacking you or your opinion. Most people are neither inclined for desire to have a weapon while at worship. I think that makes it even more important for me to. I carry the burden for others so they don't have to. I like the idea that others can relax and feel warm and safe without knowing in my own mind the safety is tentative and could be shattered by the actions of one evil person. God gave me the desire to be a protector, so thats what I am. I don't fight that desire or I go against teh very nature of my creation in my opinion.

 

[RoostRider]

Concealment fails.... there is a reason we go through the trouble of getting permits, that is so that we can LEGALLY carry.. I would guess you are risking your right to legally carry EVERYWHERE if you choose to illegally carry for that one hour every week... then weigh the odds that something that requires you to be armed will happen in church against the odds that something that requires you to be armed will happen somewhere else...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis

It is the Right and duty of all free people to at all times be armed and ready. No matter what.

Just a couple questions to verify then-
Even in a courthouse where it is prohibited by law?
Sneak one into a high school play?
Sneak one into a prison?
If they haul you to jail for illegal possession of a firearm, are you going to try to sneak one in there too?
Why bother getting a permit at all if you intend to be a criminal with your firearm anyways?
How "HighRoad" is it to promote illegal carry?

Thats just pure bad advice.....

I can't imagine how that video relates to the fact that it is ILLEGAL to carry a gun in some churches in some states, and that you shouldn't carry illegally (except to perhaps point out that the law should be changed, which is pretty far from the topic of this thread)... and that if this is the case in your state, taking your gun into a church makes you a CRIMINAL (defacto) and risks your right to carry a gun ANYWHERE else from that time out.... and finally, as I noted, that you should relate this directly to how likely you are to be killed in church as opposed to.... I don't know, say, ANYWHERE ELSE YOU EVER GO FOREVER....

It's just plain stupid to compromise your right to carry everywhere on the off chance that one place you could not legally carry, you might, in some freak incident, be attacked... If you're that concerned about it... as I said... find another church or another state....

I think you should only carry where it is legal.... as a result, I am confident that I will be allowed to carry everywhere that it is legal for the rest of my life

 

[shdwfx]

I respect the opinions of you guys, but for me, bringing a gun into a church just seems to negate the message they have. Loving thy neighbor and forgiveness and fearing no evil seem negated when you have a Glock under your coat.

That Glock is a hunk of metal, a mere tool. Only what you do with it can negate loving thy neighbor and forgiveness, etc.

 

[Johnm1]

I would but I don't think I am allowed. Not because of any church rules or even a law (AZ) about carrying in church. My problem is that until our church is finished we celebrate in a local public school. I don't figure the distinction between church vs. school will matter to the prosecuter. Even after our church is completed I don't think I will be able to carry as we are building a primary school as well as the church. I am pretty sure the AZ law just says 'school' and does not distinguish public or private (though I should probably verify that). It also makes no distinction about time of day or use of the facility. Not happy with it but I don't break the law.

I figure it is more likely it is discovered that I am carrying on school property than an SD situation at church.

 

[MAURICE]

It is a no no here in Arkansas to carry in a church, but they are looking at changing that. Be aware of the laws in your state and then decide. If I were you, I would rather get into a little legal trouble for carrying in church than to have anyone hurt or worse.
YMMV, IMHO, etc.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I don't advocate carrying illegally. I just don't believe the Bible negates the carrying of a weapon in church or anywhere else. The Bible does teach us to obey the laws of man though, if its illegal don't do it. Find another place to worship.

 

[a2fireball]

In Michigan its OK to carry in church as long as you have the permission of the pastor or other:

Excerpt fro Michigan gun free zones:

Pistol Free Areas
Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol on the following premises:

Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian

Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.

Sports arena or stadium

A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises

Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons

An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more

A hospital

A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university

A Casino

 

[AKElroy]

Would Jesus allow his Sons and Daughters to be brutally murdered in his house? WWJD? I think he would Provide defense (That’s you.) for his family. (Your congregation.)

No building is "Jesus' House". The people are the church, and you are correct that they need defending when attacked regardless what structure they are in.

 

[Revben]

In the Scriptures, the Great Shepherd carried a rod and a staff. The "rod" was a weapon the shepherd used to defend the sheep against wild animal attacks.
I am a pastor in Virginia, as well as a citizen with a CCW permit. Since I read of the recent news of one of my brothers being killed in his church by a gunman with a .45 caliber, I carry every Sunday.

 

[REAPER4206969]

Why bother getting a permit at all if you intend to be a criminal with your firearm anyways?

That is a question every man must ask himself.

How "HighRoad" is it to promote illegal carry?

I believe it to be a far higher road to promote something that can potentially save their lives and the lives of countless others than it is promoting crawling the low road on your knees to more comfortably kiss the governments boots.

I can't imagine how that video relates to the fact that it is ILLEGAL to carry a gun in some churches in some states, and that you shouldn't carry illegally

It was ILEIGAL for her to carry her handgun into the restaurant (Think Church here.) she OBEYED that immoral law and her family and numerous others were brutally MURDERED. If she would have disobeyed the tyrants will she could have stopped the evil doer.

Just a couple questions to verify then-
Even in a courthouse where it is prohibited by law?
Sneak one into a high school play?
Sneak one into a prison?

No matter what.

 

[kabrn]

As far as the legality it is ok here, i just wondered how other people felt. I see that there are a couple of different thoughts and ways of looking at it. These same thoughts are what i have bounced around in my mind, and although different people see it different i thank each and every one of you for your post it deffenitly helps to see how other people with a common intrest feel about a subject like this. I do not make my decissions lightly as there are consiquinces for every decission that we make most importantly our decission about christ. thanks again to every one that has taken the time to respond, all of the answers here are food for thought. I also beleive that we should have the right to protect ourselves and those around us no matter where we are if im a law abbiding citizen in one place im not going to change my mind just because im at a school, church, court house or other places that we are forbiden to carry.

 

[jon_in_wv]

If its illegal to carry somewhere its a lot more prudent to just no go there, than to break the law. You can talk a good game about your RIGHT to carry wherever you want but when you are sitting in prison or losing all you have to a wrongful death lawsuit you may rethink you attitude.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

We had a CCW in church language bill in Committee that was essentially dead on arrival. When the Illinois Shootings occured recently, that bill rose from the dead and was set up to be voted on. Our State House has ALREADY passed this part of the bill to send to the Senate.

Unfortunately there were 9 I think that is on the Committee that collects bills Passed by the HOUSE and decides which ones make to the Senate Floor for Vote.

Because of the recent shootings the bill suddenly had 4 people for it, 4 against it and both sides gathered together to fight for or against it on the one day it's supposed to have a final vote to either die right there in the committee room or make it to the Senate.

It died. 4 votes to 4 Votes. The 9th vote which would have either passed the bill 5-4 disappeared without voting at all. As a Senator, he was required to be present during the vote. But I think he was feeling a great deal of pressure from both sides and broke and ran.

I have feeling that we must have another Church shooting here in Arkansas with more people paying the ultimate price with thier lives in whatever numbers before this language of the CCW laws MUST be changed to allow carry in churches.

I hate to say it but it's going to happen.

Now, I strongly adhere to the laws of CCW in my state and feel that until this Church problem is resolved, either with a new Legislative Session next year at the State Capitol and signed into LAW or when a Church here in this state gets hit with more killing and it makes the change rather fast.

UNTIL that does change. I dont go to church period. I stay right here at home and get it over the DTV or Satellite.

I dont like not going. It takes away from the Body of Christ as a whole when a congregation loses people due to a law or risk of killing. Ive already decided that Im not going to go out with the gun still in the house miles away and is useless.

Suppose I did go and actually draw and fire on a bad guy. I get prosecuted for it under current law. Most likely the CCW will be revoked and I stand to lose the right to carry, own or keep arms when I get out of jail.

So is it worth it to me to break one simple law that is left half finished to a coward senator this year and carry into the House of God or is it worth it for me to stay the hell home waiting for news of ANOTHER church killing this time maybe right here in Arkansas before the law is properly changed.

That is the catch 22.

But I WILL NOT be inside a church with others without arms. Not until the law is changed properly.

 

[razorback2003]

Arkansas Church Carry NOT FELONY/Loss of Gun Rights

Carrying a handgun in a church under a license, unless on a journey (almost no restrictions), would be a misdemeanor in Arkansas. You would be charged with 'carrying a weapon' which again is a misdemeanor. You would not lose your right to have firearms, if convicted. You possibly could have your license suspended or revoked for a period of time, if convicted. A misdemeanor conviction in Arkansas is generally a fine. Carrying a weapon conviction fine can be up to $1,000 but generally much less. You would probably have to buy back your handgun from auction.

I am telling you this because it is not the end of the world for carrying a handgun on a license in a church in Arkansas. You will not be a felon and not lose your gun rights. You will probably not be prosecuted if using the handgun for self defense in a church. If you are on a journey, you may carry a handgun virtually anywhere in Arkansas, even without a license. I would not such a law keep me from going to church because there are other legal ways that allow carry, such as being on a journey.

Thankfully, I live in Tennessee now, but when in Arkansas I have both a permit and am on a journey.

 

[RoostRider]

No matter what.

Gotcha.... and don't think for a second that I don't understand your reasoning... I just can't agree with it in actual practice...

Good luck with that if you ever have to go to court... can't really see how you could get away with that around here....

 

[BHP FAN]

Razorback,isn't life itself,a journey? I'm not sure how well that would hold up in court,though...

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Arkansas allows a Journey when you are 10 miles or so distant at a minimum. Heck, if they pulled me over on my range shoot 2 miles from home with a bunch to go, there isnt a problem.

Church is like... 20 miles away or more one way.

 

[psyopspec]

Reaper, Susan Gratia Hupp campaigned furiously, and with great success, to change the CCW laws she didn't agree with. Her solution was to work within the law to change what she saw as being wrong with it, rather than simply break it. I'm a little confused at you posting her testimony; are you saying you agree that bad laws should be changed by legitimate means, or are you saying that you, Reaper, get to decide what a bad law is and whether or not you'll choose to obey it?

 

[REAPER4206969]

Are you saying that it is better that she obeyed the unconstitutional law rather than disobey it and have the means to save her family and others? Is your obedience to the state more important than your Life? I have already answered that question.

 

[REAPER4206969]

At 2.13 “The stupidest mistake of my life.”

At 4.07 “I would much rather be sitting in jail with a felony offence and have my parents alive.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis

A smart person learns from their mistakes; but a wise person learns from the mistakes of others. This particular mistake is a mistake a person gets to make only once.

 

[REAPER4206969]

This is a topic of Life and death. Right and wrong. Liberty and tyranny. Freedom and slavery. It is well for every one that reads this thread to give the issue at hand their serious consideration.

 

[psyopspec]

Are you saying that it is better that she obeyed the unconstitutional law rather than disobey it and have the means to save her family and others?

Nope. Per my original post (#9):

I won't advocate breaking the law. Be aware of the ones that pertain to you before you make a decision.

Is your obedience to the state more important than your Life?

No, nor did I contend as much. I merely asked for a clarification of your position: Work to change laws we as individuals/groups don't agree with via legal means, or flip the bird to the laws in the societies in which we leave when we feel they shouldn't pertain to us.

As for me, I make it a general philosophy that if my defensive tools are not welcome in a business, home, or legal jurisdiction, then I am not welcome. Just as an example, if my philosophy of self-defense as a part of individual freedom is not welcome in one of these United States, I'll plan my vacations and seek my entertainment elsewhere. Only exceptions to that are military posts, but that was something I knew about going into it, so I waived my bitching rights about that particular circumstance when I signed on the dotted line.

Bottom line, I believe it is up to every individual to inform themselves on the possible consequences of their actions and make a choice accordingly. However, it's frustrating to no end when, rather than advising people to organize others and communicate with their elected representatives to get a bad law changed, some just buck the system and ride the coattails of others who push better laws through. Not saying you're doing this - but your advocacy for ignoring laws and property rights of no-carry establishments does suggest it.