Entertainment for the night...

[Larry Ashcraft]

All some idiot has to do is see your CC and feel threatened, and it's considered brandishing, and you get hammered for wearing a shirt that didnt quite do it's job.

That's not the way it works here. PTK broke no laws, he was detained for "scaring the sheep", which doesn't surprise me for the area he was in.

And, I have met PTK while he was wearing the same armament. I would have never known had he not mentioned it (we were in 'like' company).

My comment on all this "you were wearing too many guns" commentary is; it sounds like the people who tell me; "We don't need assault weapons".

This site is about freedom, seems like a lot of us forget that from time to time.

 

[gp911]

Hippie, you got what was coming to ya!

Errr, I mean, you're scary and scary people go to jail?

Okay, so I'm just glad it wasn't me. I'm disappointed you didn't at least add the SP101 in an ankle holster in case the yakuza didn't search you thoroughly enough after taking over the store!

gp911

 

[MJRW]

This site is about freedom, seems like a lot of us forget that from time to time.

It is also about discussion. And if people want to say, "seems like your hardware exceeds your use," then that is also reasonable. "Freedom" has never meant "do what you want and I have no commentary on it." Why do people so often mistake discussion and disagreement as limiting freedom?

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I think the most I ever carried at once, successfully, was 15 handguns.
Concealed.
(of course, I was wearing a trenchcoat...)

Aah, I knew it! You're Il Duce!

 

[Treo]

What Would Happen If...

( I'll bet those words have caused more trouble than any other 4 words in the English language)

But here goes,

What would happen if every body that lives is Colorado & Southern Wyoming ( THR members) showed up at that Wal-Mart, at the same time and walked in legally and peacefully and bought something. While legally carrying firearms ? I think it would have to be O.C. or nobody would get it.

 

[Kind of Blued]

My comment on all this "you were wearing too many guns" commentary is; it sounds like the people who tell me; "We don't need assault weapons".

This site is about freedom, seems like a lot of us forget that from time to time.

My sentiments exactly, and the exact reason I love this forum. I'd go further and say that this country is about freedom. I'm quite disappointed by the insinuations of some of my fellow forumites that PTK was asking for trouble by exercising his rights.

 

[KC0QGL]

Treo, I think it would be fun. If we could ever stop BSing in the parking lot that is.

 

[larry_minn]

First sorry this happened to you. A comment you (could) have used "why 3 guns" is that your wife can only legally carry a knife. You carry a extra so if SHTF she can grab it.
Thankfully I don't live in a place/interact with folks that I feel the need to carry 3 guns (and spare mags) to go to store.
When I have felt threatened I grab the AR with pistol in their proper roles. (backup)

 

[Flyboy]

Male officer: "You know, it's just not normal for people to carry this much, right?"

Me: "It should be."

Male officer: "...this isn't a political debate. You CAN legally carry these, but it's not normal."

So...are cops "Law Enforcement Officers," or "Normality Enforcement Officers?"

Sue the jerks. The won't stop trampling the rights of private citizens (who are "civilians" exactly the same as they are) until somebody makes them stop.

Damn, I hate bullies.

 

[PTK]

I have met PTK while he was wearing the same armament. I would have never known had he not mentioned it (we were in 'like' company).

THANK YOU, LARRY! Too many people assume that two fullsize guns will stick out. They simply DO NOT understand how easy it is with a proper cover shirt. Under a regular t-shirt, I concealed an XD45, HK USP 45, Glock 17, and FN USG 5.7. Without anyone noticing.

Hippie, you got what was coming to ya!

Jerk.

Errr, I mean, you're scary and scary people go to jail?

JERK!

Okay, so I'm just glad it wasn't me. I'm disappointed you didn't at least add the SP101 in an ankle holster in case the yakuza didn't search you thoroughly enough after taking over the store!

You're a huge jerk, man. In a good way.

Why do people so often mistake discussion and disagreement as limiting freedom?

I make no mistake and fully welcome your dissenting opinion, friend.

Aah, I knew it! You're Il Duce!

What if it was one guy, with six guns?

What would happen if every body that lives is Colorado & Southern Wyoming ( THR members) showed up at that Wal-Mart, at the same time and walked in legally and peacefully and bought something. While legally carrying firearms ? I think it would have to be O.C. or nobody would get it.

Let's see about what the lawyer says, what WM corporate says, etc. I'm in if it goes through, obviously. I'm not exactly rich or in great health, so I have rather little to lose at this point.

I'm quite disappointed by the insinuations of some of my fellow forumites that PTK was asking for trouble by exercising his rights.

Thank you, good sir!

First sorry this happened to you. A comment you (could) have used "why 3 guns" is that your wife can only legally carry a knife. You carry a extra so if SHTF she can grab it.

We've trained for just that, but she's not my wife... (yet. )

Sue the jerks. The won't stop trampling the rights of private citizens (who are "civilians" exactly the same as they are) until somebody makes them stop.

Damn, I hate bullies.

I'll see what the lawyer says, but... if I can remind them that this isn't ok to do to a citizen, I will.

 

[Armueller2001]

Isn't OC legal in CO too?

 

[PTK]

Isn't OC legal in CO too?

Yes, I'll be OCing until further notice.

 

[Kind of Blued]

I'm game for the open-carry party if it happens. It's a date. I need to buy something big and stainless...

Look at us. Using the internet as a platform to conspire to exercise our rights...

What Would Happen If...
( I'll bet those words have caused more trouble than any other 4 words in the English language)

I'm actually quite certain that those four words hold second place to "Dude, hold my beer..."

 

[Aran]

Hogwash, a situation like this could never have occurred. The police don't just rush in, cuff you, and drag you back to the manager's office and make you sit there until they're done with you, berating you the whole way, then tell you off until they decide they're done, once they've escorted you back outside, while telling you they know you did nothing wrong.

Everyone should be calling foul and troll, not listening to this... this trash!




(Exact same thing happened to me. Including the last bit, on a different forum.)

 

[BruceRDucer]

/

The officer was right, though. It is NOT normal. Even here, it isn't normal. Are we really debating if carrying this much hardware is "normal?"---MJRW

That isn't a rational statement. "Normal" is not an established concept at law, and law, is all that the police are authorized to enforce.

"Normalcy" as a concept, is entirely distinct from the law, and citizens in Colorado (and other states) are not required by law, to conform to a NORM. If one refers to the NORM as the law itself, the argument for Normalcy is already subverted. Police cannot enforce "Normal". That's a police state proposition.

Given that PTK was licensed, and the license does not specify limitations regarding NORMAL & ABNORMAL, your understanding is not precise in this my friend.


/

 

[BruceRDucer]

/

Innocent until proven guilty is for court. ---Surat

Surat, you look suspicious. Do you have your papers?

This site is about freedom, seems like a lot of us forget that from time to time.---Moderator Larry Ashcraft

Well stated Larry; and, wasn't Freedom one of the justifications for founding the nation also?

[Gee whiz Ma, it seems that people get so comfortable with repression, that they assume that unless the government or local authorities are repressing the citzens, the citizen's aren't getting what they pay taxes for, and isn't that silly?]

 

[R.W.Dale]

At what point does preparedness cross that fine line over to fear and paranoia?

Just throwin that out there

 

[PTK]

At what point does preparedness cross that fine line over to fear and paranoia?

I don't walk around afraid, and as for paranoia, I rather doubt anyone is out to get me.

That said, I still don't see a problem with carrying a handgun for either hand to access.

 

[Aran]

In honor of you, PTK, I just went to WalMart concealing both my Glock and my Witness, and made no effort to keep them concealed under my Hawaiian print overshirt.

It was also 6am and nobody was there but the early morning cleaning crew and 2 cashiers, maybe a manager in back... but I did it for you!

 

[MJRW]

That isn't a rational statement. "Normal" is not an established concept at law, and law, is all that the police are authorized to enforce.

"Normalcy" as a concept, is entirely distinct from the law, and citizens in Colorado (and other states) are not required by law, to conform to a NORM. If one refers to the NORM as the law itself, the argument for Normalcy is already subverted. Police cannot enforce "Normal". That's a police state proposition.

He wasn't giving a legal opinion. He was a dude wearing a badge that made a statement. Let's not make it something bigger than it is. He wasn't requiring PTK to do anything. And despite all your talk about whether not it is a legal concept, it still doesn't make it normal. I know many people that carry. We are not truly normal. Among those of us that are carrying, fewer of us carry BUGs. We are not normal. Those carrying BUGs rarely carry a full sized BUG. They are not normal. Those carrying full sized BUGs rarely carry a second BUG. They are not normal. How was carrying that much "normal"?

And here is something I hate doing, I hate defending that which I didn't say, but I'm going to do it anyway. I never said he shouldn't carry that much, that he shouldn't be allowed to carry that much, nor did I say he brought it upon himself. I ONLY said it isn't normal. I hate doing that. People read poorly enough what was written that they shouldn't take the liberty of reading what wasn't written.

 

[bubbaturbo]

PTK said:

XD45, two extra mags, FN USG 5.7, two extra mags, NAA .22wmr revolver (and a knife and such). Same that I carry every day.

As for my SO's answer, she's only 18 but very badly wants a CCW here in CO

My SO and I have trained so that if the SHTF, I grab the gun of my choice and she gets the other if she's close enough to get it before I'm moving for cover/concealment.

I think the most I ever carried at once, successfully, was 15 handguns

I never really bother concealing very well here in CO

I carry extra mags because of clearance drills, and two fullsize guns because I want one strong side, one weak side. No matter what hand I can get at one with, I have a full-fledged gun.

You try saying no to puppy-dog eyes from a cute 18 year old woman

Too many people assume that two fullsize guns will stick out. They simply DO NOT understand how easy it is with a proper cover shirt

Am I the only one who has an entirely different take on this thread? If nobody knows what I mean, then I guess I am.

 

[PTK]

Am I the only one who has an entirely different take on this thread? If nobody knows what I mean, then I guess I am.

Insinuations of my being paranoid/foolish/et cetera are not appreciated. It's not the thought that others find me foolish that is vexing, it's the disrespect shown to only beat around the bush. If you have something to say, by all means come out and say it - I won't be offended. I welcome all opinions, especially those that I don't agree with. I've had my eyes opened before.

 

[Guntalk]

Interesting thread - a number of viewpoints.

The trainers we work with on Personal Defense TV all carry more than one gun. All of them.

Several of them carry three guns. Why? It's usually faster to go to a different gun than fix a malfunction on the one you are using. Plus, you may be on the ground, having been knocked down, and unable to get to the gun under you.

As for "What should the officers have done?" . . . simple. Tell the man that there was a complaint that he was carrying a gun, and ask if he has a permit. Done deal. With 12 officers, I don't think there was much danger to the cops.

From this chair, the response was way out of proportion.

On carrying a lot of guns, on PDTV this fall, we have a segment where Massad Ayoob decided to see how many he could conceal. We had to gather up guns from everywhere. The part that really tore him up? After he had loaded up pockets and holsters, and then we taped it as he removed them, one after another, and he produced . . . well, more than 20 handguns . . . we turned off the cameras, and the then found TWO more handguns on his person that he missed when pulling out all the guns!

I told him to be sure to not fall in a lake wearing all that hardware.

Carrying a backup gun isn't just okay. It's a darn good idea.

 

[PTK]

Mr. Gresham, thank you for your comments. It's nice to know that not everyone here on THR thinks I'm crazy for simply exercising my rights.

 

[FmrMarine]

PTK,
With respect, I don't think most people are calling you paranoid or foolish. I do, however, think that some people here, myself included, have tried to point out that the entire situation may have been avoided by either a) carrying gear more conducive to proper concealment, or b) taking greater care to concealing the large amount of gear you chose to carry. Your failure to do either of those contributed to what you experienced as well as putting you on the radar of local law enforcement. Additionally, I think those advocating a civil action over this are missing the big picture. RKBA issues are fought on both legal and public relations fronts. While you may have good standing legally, it would not be a good P.R. move to go to court where you most assuredly would be painted by defense counsel as a paranoid nut. Juries, and judges for that matter, do not always act on the basis of law. The system is not always fair. Every time an armed citizen prevents or stops a crime it generates positive press for CCW. That positive press would be un-done by someone who sues Wal-Mart because he was detained when Suzy Shopper saw his "concealed" handgun and upon further inspection law enforcement learned he was carrying 3 handguns and over 100 rounds of ammunition in addition to other "equipment." (When you carry a pocket knife along with 3 handguns it is no longer a pocket knife, it is a military-style knife in the eyes of our sensationalistic media.) I am fairly certain the media and legislators would be far more vocal about the guy in Wal-Mart legally carrying an aresnal than they would the armed citizen shooting a violent criminal.