Pistol for Grizzly Country

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I have a question for Oro and others with actual bear experience: Do "bear bangers" or similar work? Obviously these would be used long before a bear got close.

I have never used one, and I think these would work pretty well for defending a static base you are pinned to, like a campsite in a National Park, where guns were banned. Unless you had just grilled up some steaks, in which case the smell of food might keep the bear interested. Otherwise, I'd much rather pop-off a round of .44 magnum into the dirt and let them react to that - much faster and quicker than the "banger." I've seen Civil War Parrot 9lb cannons that were quicker and simpler to discharge than some "bear bangers." I do no have as much "bear experience" as say, a real wilderness guide or many Rangers, etc. I have just studied everything I could for the last few years, and I have talked in person and via email to a few real experts to learn as much as I could. Then, I just started bumping into bears all the time - six in the last 2.5 years. I think partly it's the area - the Cascades are pretty heavily populated with them. Secondly it may be our horses - maybe the bears smell them and come closer or expose themselves to check it out, but given the distances I am not so sure about that. I think the main reason is the trails we use, which tend to be along natural watercourses in the valleys/passes of the mountains. This is of course where the bears are going to travel/feed, so it's just natural you will bump into them. Of the bears, only one was possibly a grizzly - he was quite big and brown, but I did not stick around long enough to ID him via the hump or go back to look at prints. Color alone is not enough to guarantee an ID and that size range can overlap the two species, especially springtime as that encounter was. The others were clearly black bears in the 200 to 450lbs range.

I have never encountered a bear in the wild that made me feel threatened. We just both keep going on our own way. The only time I really worry is sleeping at night, with livestock (prey animals) tethered near by. I think most people who DO get in trouble, get in trouble because they violated the annoying precautions you need to follow: Cook WELL away from the sleeping area, "tree" the food and cooking utensils after eating AWAY from the tents/sleeping area. Also "tree" clothes saturated with cooking smoke/scents, and don't sleep in those clothes. The USFS and NPS have pamphlets on traveling in bear country at their ranger stations, too, which cover these practices.

I am hoping to spend at least one night maybe two this week on a remote trail in the mountains in the Cascades. I am just taking sealed dry food and not cooking since it's only me.

Pepper spray is much more effective at terminating a bear attack than a handgun...

I have tried very hard to track down the source of that information and verify it. Unfortunately, the only thing I could find is a study done by a pepper spray maker that stated when "properly deployed" their spray was in the realm of 85 to 90% effective. This brought up a few questions:

1) What does the caveat "properly deployed" mean? A: it means that you have had time and favorable wind conditions to spray a circular area 20' in radius around you and your camp/party, and that you stay within it during the period of the bear attack, AND you confront the bear with the can and spray more at his snout at each approach. I'm sorry, I don't have the time to gurantee I can always set up a defensive perimeter or possibly even the nerves of steel for that.
2) If you have the cojones for that, you then will only be mauled 10% of the time. IF you do everything by the book.
3) If you don't manage to pull off all of those requirements, you are out of the sample and therefore not part of the "properly deployed" statistics. They don't publish those numbers, oddly.

I would LOVE to see some honest, scientific statistics about "had a can of bear spray" vs. "had a loaded .44 magnum" in a bear attack! basically, when I hear "bear spray works better," what it tells me is the arguer has not actually studied the issue, but is just drinking the "kool aid" of the anti-gun crowd, and on a matter that could cost them their life.

This is a study with some decent science behind it by an expert:

http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF12/1245.html

If I can find the laughable industry study with the outlandish claims, I'll post a link to that, to. The major fault with the government touted studies is that they compare pepper spray-mediated bear encounters vs. gun-mediated bear attacks. For example, one study I found used data on sprays where bears were routing in garbage, then maced them. Hey, the bear was having a snack, not defending territory or cubs. So it skedaddled. These tend to run in the 90% or so effective category: non-angered/attacking bears are deterred. Then these statistics are rolled out and compared to situations where a gun was used to defend against an actual attack, which shows about a 2/3 rate of avoiding injury overall (no control for type of gun, experience of user, situation e.g. - they had a gun, but they happened to be asleep in their tent at the time).

I've spent much of my adult life working with statistics, research, or science of one type or another - mostly social science, biological science or epidemiology. The science in most "bear attack" studies is so sloppy as to be complete "junk science."
 
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I would LOVE to see some honest, scientific statistics about "had a can of bear spray" vs. "had a loaded .44 magnum" in a bear attack! basically, when I hear "bear spray works better," what it tells me is the arguer has not actually studied the issue, but is just drinking the "kool aid" of the anti-gun crowd, and on a matter that could cost them their life.

Here's a couple of sources:

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/pepperspray/pepperspray.htm

and

Bear Attacks: Their Causes and Avoidance by Stephen Herrero.

The latter is probably the definitive study on bear attacks. It should be read by anyone venturing into bear country.
 
That study is a good read. Thanks for posting the link. I'd been looking for it (poorly apparently).
 
Oro...

Tequila, go back and read my last two paragraphs.

I think you edited your post to include the last two paragraphs after I'd submitted my previous post...

If you're not sufficiently impressed by the Ph.D. at the USGS who's studied bears extensively, you should read the Herrero book...

If you feel more comfortable with your 44 Magnum, by all means rely on it. If you follow a few simple rules while in bear country, you should never need to use it anyway. Personally, based on what I've read, I'm convinced bear spray is the better option, although I might be tempted to carry a 454 or 475 as a backup...:D.
 
Thank you Oro for your reply to my question. I've read multiple reports of young, curious bears hanging around at a distance and "testing" people before deciding to attack. I remember in one case some hikers tried throwing rocks, yelling, waving branches, backing away slowly, etc. but after an hour or so the bear finally attacked and killed a woman. This is the kind of situation I was thinking of with the bangers: The pesky bear that won't go away and may eventually attack. I'm sure you are correct that a shot into the ground will likely have the same effect.... and I'm already carrying a gun anyway! :) Bangers might be a viable option along with bear pepper spray if you go unarmed in a Nat'l Park. Looks like someone ought to make a bear banger launcher that can be carried "cocked and locked" as that would be an obvious improvement.

Tequila: Thank you for the link to the Bear Pepper Spray article, it's the best I've read on the subject so far.

I think bear pepper spray backed up by an S&W 460V and/or rifle sounds like the best possible combination.... if air support isn't available. :evil:
 
If you're not sufficiently impressed by the Ph.D. at the USGS who's studied bears extensively, you should read the Herrero book...

I have. And I'm still not convinced by selective use of data, or indiscreetly grouping non-comparable data into one pool. I don't accept any other persons credentials flatly if their methodology isn't sound. I'll let my own doctoral credentials in social and life sciences give me the background to evaluate the collection and presentation of data, and I make no judgment of anyone based on credentials alone. I examine data and see how rigorously it was collected, sorted, and interpreted. I have found nothing that sets up an honest comparison of situations where the bear was the one attacked by the human with peppery spray vs. ones in which a handgun was used to defend against bears attacking humans.

I have not stated that I believe guns to be superior to spray. I have stated I have looked for the data and it is lacking in completeness and honest treatment in the cases where I can even find details about it's collection and analysis. If I can get my hands on a data set of this, it might be a fun project this summer. I'll look into that.
 
Bear bangers are cool to watch and very impressive. When I worked up north we use to blast them at the outhouse when someone was taking a dump. It was the outhouse from hell, had a target spraypainted on the side. But I digress, bangers go off at a distance so if the bear is close it won't go off between you and the bear but on the other side of the bear which will drive him towards you. Be careful about that one.
I'm sure that bear spray is effective but it's also short range. I'd use it, but it would depend on how the bear was acting. It's funny but a long time ago I thought that pepper spray would be good for bears but when I checked they said it didn't work. Now it's great. Could there be some politics involved?
I'd go for the integrated approach, take them all,(including the gun) it is your life after all.
As for the Phds, gotta tell you a lot of them are very smart but a lot of them also have their heads up their you know whats. There are also a lot of ways to trick up statistics so they say what you want.
 
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And I'm still not convinced by selective use of data, or indiscreetly grouping non-comparable data into one pool.

I noticed that, too, and I'm not a researcher by profession.

The USGS guy also noted that "firearms" were not separated, and "possessed a firearm" included "was carrying a .22LR while hiking." Then he proceeded to use a meaningless graph to illustrate a point.

Reading his piece did make me want to go get a can of bear spray before venturing into big bear country. It just didn't make me want to leave the .44 at home when alone in the wilderness, whether or not I'd ever use it for bear defense.
 
I have found nothing that sets up an honest comparison of situations...

I'm not sure you ever will. There are too many variables involved, e.g., the caliber of the handgun, the skill of the shooter, time of day, size of the bear, etc., to establish a reasonable base case.

Although I consider myself nominally proficient with a revolver, I'm just not sure how well I would be able to draw, aim and fire accurately within the 2 or 3 seconds I might have following a sudden, unexpected encounter with a bear. I suspect that I would have better luck with a can of bear spray, since pinpoint accuracy isn't necessary, and the spray typically lasts for 6 to 9 seconds, which gives time to adjust one's aim. And, if you use non-lethal means to repel the bear, you don't have to deal with DLP issues (in Alaska anyway) and (worst case scenario) wounding a bear which enrages it even more.
 
Although I consider myself nominally proficient with a revolver, I'm just not sure how well I would be able to draw, aim and fire accurately within the 2 or 3 seconds I might have following a sudden, unexpected encounter with a bear. I suspect that I would have better luck with a can of bear spray, since pinpoint accuracy isn't necessary, and the spray typically lasts for 6 to 9 seconds, which gives time to adjust one's aim.

Those are VERY good points. Again, I'm not arguing a revolver is better, just the stats are useless and the studies that "claim" they have an answer are laughable by any objective statistical measurement.

Here's my test of using a handgun effectively: Have you ever seen the wonderful film Glory? Do you remember the scene were the colonel (Matthew Broderick) starts shouting in a recruits ear to "Load, ram, aim, fire" etc.? And he has him into quivering jelly in 20 seconds of concentrated yelling in his ear? That's the measure of stress and reaction. A person learns to deal with that, which is much less prevalent in our modern age of reduced military service or intense situations encountered in childhood/early adult hood. So it's a highly subjective thing of who can handle either a spray can effectively or a firearm. Couple that with the fact those studies include pepper-spraying bears that were not attacking, just grazing for food and not at all enraged and adrenaline-enabled, and you have a messy data set!

As an avid shooter, animal lover, and nature enthusiast, my 1st response to a bear is to go the other way. This has ALWAYS worked. If pinned to defending others in camp, then next would be the step of like a "bear banger" - a discharge into the ground to frighten them away. But I'll use a gun for that, not the troublesome and awkward "banger" itself. But as a last gasp, I am not making the pepper my "last stop" defense." I think that if you have time to use it, the pepper makes a great tool to use against a circling/contemplating bear as it will dissuade him/her from further attack.

If it's night, in a camp site, i want a gun.

My most telling Grizzly attack story was from E.F. Pott's (the legendary Alaska bush Pilot) 1st wife's story. She was jumped by a grizzly out of the blue while walking out of her house. She's a pacifist soul, but thankfully one who had a S&W 29 on her hip at the time and the will to use it. This is a great story:

http://www.fepco.com/bear_attack.html

Now this is 1) from the late 60's, 2) a crazy/hippy chic painter/artist who had no qualms about protecting her life. It was before the era of bear spray, but still, it's a nice psychological insight. (I told you I have been collecting stories and data for years!).
 
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Are there any doubts about 10mm 200 gr hardcast hot loads doing the job if the need arises?

Of course there are doubts. Otherwise there wouldn't be much sense in threads like this one popping up weekly.
 
It's pics like this that make you realize the smaller calibers are not the best choice....
claws.gif

That picture was obviously photo-shopped. If it was real there would be a puddle in the fork of the tree. Not just a few drops on his shoes....
 
Hmm, the question of which pistol to use against Griz attacks seems like the question of which lie to tell your wife so she doesn't find out about your girlfriend: Either can get you killed. :D

From one who in a Native Alaskan, lives and travels in Alaska, and intends to stay that way, my forays into the wild contain two things: A 6" Super Redhawk in .454 with 330 grain Cor-Bon penetrators in my left side shoulder holster and a crack-shot wife with a 590 Mossberg stoked with 9 Brenneke slugs. Of course of even more importance is my German Shepherds to make sure I don't get startled.
 
.44 Magnum, 5-7 Inch Barrel, Stainless

The .44 Magnum is proven effective on large bears. It is less expensive to buy and shoot than the .454, .460, or .500. The recoil is more reasonable. (I am not recoil sensitive but you can't tell me that a .500 has about the same amount of recoil as a .44 Magnum in a reasonbly sized stainless frame). You don't have to carry it in a sling or risk looking like a horse with a saddle holster on. You aren't going to be in a firefight with a bear so you don't need a hi-cap magazine to blast off like a hollywood movie scene. If it isn't finished by the time you empty your cylinder with well placed shots you are going to be done anyway. Some people try to be so prepared for a situation that could arise that they are weighed down with gear and forced to participate in an undesireable situation because they can't "get out of the way." If you are in grizzly country and someone asks you what you carry when out and about and you say .44 Mag, they aren't going to look at you like people do if they ask you what your preferred concealed carry gun is and you say a two shot derringer in .22LR.
 
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pick the right ammo for the gun.

the ammo picks the gun, the gun does not pick the ammo.
what you need to do is looks at ballistics and bullet expansion of different calibers. if you want to have a bullet that expands and mushrooms enough to stop a bear in one or two shots, i would not pick anything below a .45acp. if you want very quick follow up shots and something that will not only hurt a bear bad, but scare it away, even a 9mm would work.
because with bears, it is shot placement, not necessarily shot size that is the deciding factor. i have heard stories of guys shooting bears with 300 winmags in the head and it just bounces off. i have heard of people killing bears with 9mm handguns because they shot them straight through the vitals and was able to get quick follow up shots after the first initial shot. what gun would i get? a taurus judge. even a .410 00 buck can hurt a bear really really bad, and it also shoots .45 long colt, which is big enough to take down an angry bear.
but i still would like an even bigger 12 guage shotgun with either slugs or buckshot in it.
that is just devastating.
 
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Personally I like my howitzer, but as it is a tow behind, I find it a little slow to get in action, and these ammo prices are killing me.

DOG, as in moving alarm system, keeps you from from getting surprised, what I take hiking, and a can of bear spray, and my pistol.

Not gonna tell what caliber it is, as if I have to use it, it don't really matter.
 
Alaska Game and Fish Dept did a study on bear spray, and it was shown to be effective in like 89% of the time on Grizzly and like 60% of the time on black bear. So it was less effective on black bears. They have yet to find a reason why.
 
So it was less effective on black bears. They have yet to find a reason why.

Maybe because the only Black Bears left alive in Alaska are meaner than Grizz?:D
 
I grew up hunting and fishing Alaska. One of us always has a 12 guage with slugs. Everyone that has one carries at least a 44 magnum.

10MM, 40SW or smaller is not near enough. I agree with the guy who suggested the S&W 460.

I've been chased by bear and moose. It ain't fun. Once you have seen these animals up close, you too will carry a large gun.

As far as dogs go. No thanks. Seen too many dogs bring mamma bear back to camp pissed off. Dogs are great until they think they're going to get eat'in. Then they come back to you for protection.
 
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