Which SHTF Pistol: Glock or 1911?

[RyanM]

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=4&t=13658
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=81964

Now can we end this "which is reliable" pissing contest? Both are capable of excellent reliability in adverse conditions as long as you use decent parts, don't add too many stupid doohickeys, and don't try to get a 2 pound trigger.

 

[Borachon]

Now you are just whining because everybody doesn't want to drink the ,"1911-ade".

Nope. Sorry. Doesn't work in my case. I don't own a 1911. Did at one point, but got rid of it due to reliability issues.

What you see ME advocating is steel versus plastic.

But thanks for playing.


Again, I'll repeat this. My OPINION is that I want a firearm that is composed of a durable material when I'm in a SHTF situation. I THINK, and I believe most independent observers WITHOUT a justification to defend their favorite plastic firearm will agree, that STEEL is more durable than PLASTIC. If they made a gun that was fashioned out of a diamond, I'd be advocating THAT as a good weapon.

If you are comfortable with your Glock...fine. Just remember...it's only your LIFE you're betting on when it comes to gun durability.

And frankly, I'm willing to bet YOUR life on it.
So carry on...you're doing fine as far as I'm concerned.

 

[thorazine]

Which SHTF Pistol: Glock or 1911?

Glock for me! woohoo!

Especially considering that:

1) I do not presently own a 1911.
2) I will never buy one again.

 

[Borachon]

Now can we end this "which is reliable" pissing contest?

Which is more reliable?


Couldn't resist.

 

[Borachon]

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=4&t=13658

That's a pretty cool link. What a maniac to treat his gun like that.

I can still criticize some aspects of his methods though. Nowhere in the whole process do you see him simulate what it looks like to put a direct, localized, and heavy impact on it. In other words, he didn't throw my 400 lbs cousin on top of it. Or have my cousin step on it while it was wedged between two boards. Those things happen more often in real life. Someone drops their gun in the dark, goes to look for it, and steps on it. The driving over it with a truck on concrete looks impressive, but that really isn't all that big of a deal. Tires will give and move and the area of pressure is distributed over a wide surface. No doubt you've seen videos where people lay down and have trucks run over them? It's an old trick stunt people do.

Throwing a lightweigh piece of plastic out of an airplane onto soft ground? C'mon. You can get the same effect by climbing a tall building. He didn't need the airplane. Now if it had hit concrete, I'd be a lot more complimentary of it. Cause it would have been at terminal velocity when hitting a hard surface. The only concrete experiment I saw him do was to drop it from about 15 feet to test if it could be forced to fire. That's not enough to reach terminal velocity.

What I'd like to see is how the gun stands up to having some 250 lbs guy stumble on it and have it wedged at an odd angle...as can happen when you drop it. Or hit it with a sledge hammer a couple of times.

Maybe he should get a 1911 and start shooting both the Glock and the 1911 with increasingly larger calibers until he sees which one breaks first.

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

Bochoran,

From the tone of your post, you still don't trust the Glock, that is fine, stop arguing against it though, becasue you wouldn't do half that stuff with your vaunted 1911. Or need to in a SHTF situation...

I also like how you excuse all the real abuse the Glock took while still banging alon and look for tests he didn't do ...

PS- Pssst, one more thing. Dont' tell anybody but some polymers/compostie materials have been prove STRONGER than STEEL in test but, Thankyou for playing

 

[Borachon]

From the tone of your post, you still don't trust the Glock

ME!? NOOOOO! What EVER gave you that idea?

stuff with your vaunted 1911

Don't own a 1911. Sold the 5 I owned couple of years ago.

ike how you excuse all the real abuse the Glock took while still banging alon and look for tests he didn't do

Oh I'll give him credit for abusing his firearm. He did do that. And he showed that salt and fine powders don't have a horrible effect on Glocks. Probably make very good ocean guns. Salt content and fine sand being prevelent in those places.

I was less impressed with his drop tests, drive over tests and his drag tests though. Some of those would have benefitted from carrying them to a higher level. But if he'd done that, there would have been Glock parts laying all over the ground. But to be fair, a 1911 probably wouldn't have survived hitting concrete after being dropped from a plane either.

Dont' tell anybody but some polymers/compostie materials have been prove STRONGER than STEEL in test

Stronger? Perhaps.
Does Glock claim that their polymer is stronger than steel? I'm curious if they claim that. Also, steel has other properties than it's strength. Steel has a range of environments in which it can still be strong. Place steel in the vacuum and it doesn't fly apart. I don't know if plastic responds the same way. Steel has, as was already mentioned, a higher melting point than polymer. And people can argue all day long about how their gun will be with them and wouldn't be close to a fire blah blah blah...but they can't know that. Lots of SHTF situation involve things on fire. Earthquakes, riots, forest fires. Let's put the glock and the 1911 in the oven (unloaded of course) and turn it up to 500. Let's see which one lasts longer. I know..the handgrips would catch fire. Oh well, guess I'll have to duck tape the 1911 frame.
Wouldn't be the first time

Thankyou for playing

Next time...bring chips.

 

[huntershooter]

RE. SHTF pistol: How many of you Glockafiles could rebuild your pistols? My experience has been that MANY 1911 shooters can trouble shoot/repair their pistols. Is it the same with the Glock fraternity?

 

[Biker]

RE. SHTF pistol: How many of you Glockafiles could rebuild your pistols? My experience has been that MANY 1911 shooters can trouble shoot/repair their pistols. Is it the same with the Glock fraternity?

Yeah. Pretty much. It's downright simple. For the most part, it requires just one tool.
Biker

 

[Biker]

Borachon...

You've persuaded me. I'm selling all of my Glocks because someday I may be at ground zero of a nuclear blast while packin' my Glock 27 or I might screw the pooch and accidentally mix my Glock 23 into my meatloaf and cook it at 380 degrees for four hours.
Biker

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

Biker, Man that was wrong, and yet sooooo right

I have also seen the light. I would love to see you put your metal framed gun in the oven and leave it with the mag in, and see if you DON'T get a,"Catastrophic Failure", when the ammo go's.Sorry but I don't unload my defensive handguns unless I am cleaning them, so my gun WILL go,"kaboom", if in a 500 degree fire, so would a loaded 1911. You did not just say that metal framed guns will survive in a ,"vacuum", better than a Glock, did you !? Tell me this was an error on your part and not evidence to back up your premise? 'Cause I got news for you, lack of oxygen tends to hamper your ability to shoot, and I don't envision going into space with my Glock, and fighting ,"ET". I also hear that lack of oxygen, has some kinda effect on ballistics. So if I want to fight ,"ET", in a "vacuum", while on fire at 500 degrees, I will grab a metal framed gun, that I could not touch(1911), or I will get off the drugs and get back down to Earth...Thanx for the laughs....

 

[RyanM]

RE. SHTF pistol: How many of you Glockafiles could rebuild your pistols? My experience has been that MANY 1911 shooters can trouble shoot/repair their pistols. Is it the same with the Glock fraternity?

You'd have to be one of those amazingly mechanically inept people, who just can't figure out for the life of them why that darn round peg won't fit through the square hole, to not be able to replace every single internal part in a Glock, given about 30 minutes of instruction.

http://glockmeister.com/slidedis.shtml
http://glockmeister.com/trigger.shtml

And as a bonus, the parts tend to be quite inexpensive, especially compared to 1911 parts. And there's absolutely no time wasted trying to decide what brand of parts to get. For a carry gun, it's Glock OEM or bust.

 

[jlh26oo]

I choose glock

smaller
lighter
higher capacity
tougher finish
doesn't rust
most reliable
no safeties/decockers
no exposed hammers
simpler to operate
simpler to field strip
simpler to detail strip
simpler to maintain
higher round count between scheduled parts replacements

 

[Borachon]

I'm selling all of my Glocks because someday I may be at ground zero of a nuclear blast while packin' my Glock 27

Nah...keep 'em. If you aren't smart enough to be livin' in a bunker and armed to the teeth like I am, then nothin' can save you now.

Although, all joking aside...what have I said so far that was actually illogical?

cook it at 380 degrees for four hours.

Let's assume for a minute that the rioters hit your car. You were at work and you weren't able to get out when the ballon went up. You had the Glock in the glove compartment of your car (not unusually to store one there). Your car catches fire. It burns for a brief peroid but is stopped when the local fire department comes. Rioters are still burning and looting in your town. The temperture in your car got very high. Now the question becomes...is my gun still usable?

That's just one semi-realistic scenario I can imagine that involves fire, your Glock, and you.

 

[Borachon]

lack of oxygen tends to hamper your ability to shoot, and I don't envision going into space with my Glock,

Actually, there seems to be some evidence that the gunpowder in your ammunition has oxidizers inside of it. I've never tested it, but if this is true, then firing a gun in a vacuum shouldn't be a problem.

And some nearby explosions have been known to suck all the air out of a structure. And finally, the best way to store a gun long term is to place it inside an airless environment. Smart fellow like you and you didn't know that?

I would love to see you put your metal framed gun in the oven and leave it with the mag in, and see if you DON'T get a,"Catastrophic Failure"

Which is why....one reason why....it isn't always the best idea to have your gun loaded. But then again...I'm thinking about this from MY perspective. I've got handguns to spare. I got enough handguns to arm half my church, and all of Kansas. I didn't invest ALL my money into a $400 Glock or a $400 1911. I spent mine on more inexpensive firearms that were looked down on by others. So I can AFFORD to have one gun loaded, and another one packed away in a vacuum sealed, fire resistant area. Ready to be taken out and loaded when I need it.

Not to mention there are acutally states were you can't have the firearm and the ammunition together in the same place at the same time in your car. In a fire, your gun might survive in that case.

 

[Borachon]

smaller
lighter
higher capacity
tougher finish
doesn't rust
most reliable
no safeties/decockers etc.

Those are all excellent reasons. And you presented them in a cogent fashion. Nice to see a logical argument for a change and not just blind devotion.

Is there anything about them you would change?

 

[jlh26oo]

Yeah, the spring door squeaking sound the slide makes.

 

[Biker]

Nah...keep 'em. If you aren't smart enough to be livin' in a bunker and armed to the teeth like I am, then nothin' can save you now.

Although, all joking aside...what have I said so far that was actually illogical?



Let's assume for a minute that the rioters hit your car. You were at work and you weren't able to get out when the ballon went up. You had the Glock in the glove compartment of your car (not unusually to store one there). Your car catches fire. It burns for a brief peroid but is stopped when the local fire department comes. Rioters are still burning and looting in your town. The temperture in your car got very high. Now the question becomes...is my gun still usable?

That's just when semi-realistic scenario I can imagine that involves fire, your Glock, and you.

I would venture to guess that any gun with rounds in it (chamber or mag) would be damaged due to cook-off as a result of the fire.
Biker

 

[MrPink]

I'd grab the 1911 for the simple fact that I don't own a Glock but have numerous 1911s.

The tough choice for me would be 1911 vs. SIG vs. S&W revolver vs. HK P7.

 

[Borachon]

I would venture to guess that any gun with rounds in it (chamber or mag) would be damaged due to cook-off as a result of the fire.

That's why I said the thing about keeping ammo in one place and your gun in another. If you've only invested in one or two guns and keep both of them loaded 24-7 then it's gonna suck if they are close to a fire. You'll be unarmed.

I had a gun in my car once when it caught fire, but the Fire Dept got there before it got too bad so my gun wasn't subjected to a great deal of heat. That's my primary reason for bringing fire into this discussion. 'Cause I know it can happen.

 

[Ares]

I would venture to guess that any gun with rounds in it (chamber or mag) would be damaged due to cook-off as a result of the fire.
Biker

Then there's the issue of what happened to the heat treatment of the steel parts (glock or 1911 or otherwise) which may leave any weapon weakened and dangerous after a fire.

Comparing Glocks to 1911's is somewhat like comparing 9mm to 45 ACP both sides have staunch defenders with strong opinions who will gladly argue the point until the end of time. Personally I'd take either. I happen to own a 1911 and not a Glock (yet) but in a SHTF scenario I would take the first thing I got my hands on and it may end up that it would happen to be neither a Glock or a 1911... Ideally it would be a rifle...

 

[Borachon]

Ideally it would be a rifle...

Exactly. A rifle is almost always a better weapon.

That being said....SHTF oftentimes won't give you the option of choosing. It makes you "make do" with what's closest.

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

Bochoron,

smaller
lighter
higher capacity
tougher finish
doesn't rust
most reliable
no safeties/decockers
no exposed hammers
simpler to operate
simpler to field strip
simpler to detail strip
simpler to maintain
higher round count between scheduled parts replacements

These are the same reasons most people chose the Glock, but this is not what you wanted to know. Or you would have asked me, instead of simply calling my gun crap 'cause in YNSHO, a Glock won't do well in a vacuum, a Glock might burn in a fire(we know mine will), and a Glock is inferior to all metal guns...This is clearly not the case, which is why so many GLOCK responses.
You started arguing all metal guns are great and that all Glocks are crap by design defect, composite materials. That dog don't hunt, plain and simple.

Glock out of the box, it is what it is, a combat gun, with no frills. You miight add night sights, and a 3.5# connector, that is it. Mine is stock as I shoot it just fine to Minute of Man, out to past 35 yards easily...How many completely stock 1911's out there? Besides not needing to be tricked out to be effective the Glock is cheaper to buy new than a good name brand 1911...

 

[longeyes]

I was going to vote Glock until I had a stovepipe jam with my G19 at the range yesterday.

 

[Borachon]

instead of simply calling my gun crap 'cause

When did I say your gun was crap? Show me where I said that.

What I said was that I have different concerns about what I expect of a gun. All the reasons listed by jlh26oo were good reasons. Doesn't mean I agree that a Glock is for me. I still think its a gun I don't want.

a Glock is inferior to all metal guns...This is clearly not the case, which is why so many GLOCK responses.

You have a different idea about INFERIOR than I do. That's all. To me, a gun that can be melted is inferior. My opinion on that doesn't change the fact that Glocks may be high accurate, reasonably durable, and provide stellar service for their users. But it does mean....that under certain conditions...they WILL melt.
As to it being CLEARLY not the case, I again believe that is a matter of perspective, and speaks to the issue of what you consider a SHTF situation to be. If your SHTF situation is something simple like "there's a raccoon in freezer, I better go shoot him" then a lot of issues about durability and long lasting don't enter into it.
If your SHTF situation is "Society has fallen...the Russians have invaded....the Glock plant is burning and there will never be any replacement parts again" then questions about durablility and long lastingness could be important.

Besides not needing to be tricked out to be effective the Glock is cheaper to buy new than a good name brand 1911...

An SKS carbine is cheaper than all of them. You could buy 4 SKS carbines for what one Glock would cost. Some ammo. Lots of accessories. Quart of milk. One of those little Pez dispenser things. Some gum. Maybe a......well, anyway. A lot of stuff.

But neither the 1911 or the Glock is ever going to rise to what you described the Glock as:

a combat gun, with no frills.

Don't ever take a pistol into combat. Just trust me on this one.