Which SHTF Pistol: Glock or 1911?

[gudel]

1911? no thanks, i'll take the glock.

having own both glock and 1911, and when i need to be positively absolutely sure that it will go bang, i'll take the glock.
sure the 1911 looks pretty and all, but it's nothing but a range gun for me. It's a great gun for practicing clearing jams, and knowing your local UPS/Fedex firearm shipping rules

 

[dsk]

gudel, look at 1911's like girlfriends. The prettier they are, the more money they'll want from you and the more whining and temper tantrums they'll raise if they don't get it.

 

[jlh26oo]

lol high maintenance

 

[Borachon]

Seems to me that Glocks have been around long enough to pass the 'cold test', the 'falling down the stairs' test and the wear test.

How long have Glocks been in existence as pistols? I honestly don't know. But I believe they didn't make an appearence until around 1988 or so. Correct me if I'm mistaken. That means about an 18 year history.
How many wars have Glocks been used in so far? To my knowledge, I don't think any.
So far, I can't think of any disasters that have happened in recent years that would have involved countries that keep Glocks as a primary weapon. Katrina being an exception, but not a very good exception in my opinion because police departments did have excess to some materials like lubricants, and other cleaning supplies for their firearms, and the duration of the situation wasn't more than a couple of weeks before backup arrived. Although I'd be very interested to here stories that any officers might have about the successes or failures of their Glocks in the aftermath of Katrina. For information purposes.

Most disasters have happened in the Third World, and I don't see many Glocks being carried in news photos that I see from overseas. Until we have a big disaster in the US that involves Glocks being carried through the mud for literaly weeks at the time under the most adverse of conditions (as 1911s have been), I really won't trust them. 1911s have been around almost 100 years. That's a pretty good track record. If I had to choose between a Glock and a 1911, I'd go 1911.

Edit:
And some of the info I've seen isn't very supportive of Glock is a wonder gun.
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html

 

[Biker]

Borachon

There have been numerous 'torture tests' perfomed on Glocks. It wouldn't be hard to dig a few up if you wished to do so. I've performed a few of my own on my Glock 23. I've shot it dry then refused to lube it, 'just to see', I've gone 1000s of rounds without cleaning it with no problems and this is over 16,000 rounds ago with *not one malfunction* of any kind. I sometimes carry my Glock 27 in an ankle holster, and the gun gets very dirty very quickly this way. I've taken the little booger to the range (known as the boonies around here) and shot it straight out of the holster with lint visible in the mag and internals and it fuctioned
perfectly.
My Colt LWC is pretty reliable with most ammo but likes to be cleaned and lubed on a regular basis. While that is not normally a problem, in a SHTF scenario, TLC might be hard to come by.
I want my gun to go bang every time under every imaginable condition and thus far, the only auto-loader that will do that for me is the Glock.
Biker

 

[Borachon]

I've gone 1000s of rounds without cleaning it with no problems and this is over 16,000 rounds ago with *not one malfunction* of any kind.

That's an extraordinary claim. Being the Internet though, I'm afraid that I'd want to see these results duplicated by organizations in whom I place more credibility. Not because I doubt your word, but more because I doubt your possible methods. I'm not sure that you maintained the same level of standards throughout your process. An accidental cleaning two years ago after you fired round 5,335 would screw up the experiment. You might not even remember this cleaning. To me, it seems difficult to believe that someone would deliberately go 15,000 plus rounds without cleaning their gun. Personally, I'd give this experiment after about round 5,000 and just accept the fact that my gun was good. If you were an organization being paid to test a Glock to destruction, then I'd understand why you'd treat your firearm in this manner. Absent this, I can't except your statement as fact...even if it is true. More controlled conditions and the descriptions of the various torture tests would need to be done before I would except them.

As to the numerous torture tests, why not post some links to these experiments so that I can read about them myself? This would go a longer way toward proving to me the value of a Glock than by just telling me about the tests.

 

[outofbattery]

Speaking of temperature extremes, how well does/would polymer hold up in extreme cold?

Norway,Sweden and Finland issue Glocks if that tells you anything.

 

[Borachon]

Norway,Sweden and Finland issue Glocks if that tells you anything.

I do seem to remember a couple of years ago when Finland tried to conquer the rest of the world, and therefore received a great deal of experience with their firearms in adverse conditions.

It doesn't really tell me much actually. First off, I'd want to make sure that they do, or ever did, actually issue them. Again, I'd prefer a link of some kind to an offical site stating that these countries issue these to their troops. Secondly, it's one thing to know they were issued. It's another thing to know how well they performed. I'd want to know how the troops judged the overall performance. And lastly, procurement of firearms can be motivated by all sorts of considerations. Performance and quality aren't always the only factor. Price might have been the only concern. Maybe the Glocks were the only things the Northmen could afford.

And I'm only trying to point out that you bet your life on what you carry. Issues of extremes of heat, cold, or blunt force are merely being used by my as a method to get you thinking. If after thinking about it, you are content with plastic polymer guns and feel these are sufficient...or desirable because of their lighter weight..., then fine.
I'm content too. Because you'll have a plastic gun after the SHTF while I have a gun made from all steel.

 

[jazurell]

Sounds like one should carry a Glock and a 1911, one for BBQing and one for SHTF activity.
Both are fine, if set up and maintained. Your choice. The reliability of any weapon should be tested before SHTF.

 

[outofbattery]

I do seem to remember a couple of years ago when Finland tried to conquer the rest of the world, and therefore received a great deal of experience with their firearms in adverse conditions.

It doesn't really tell me much actually. First off, I'd want to make sure that they do, or ever did, actually issue them. Again, I'd prefer a link of some kind to an offical site stating that these countries issue these to their troops. Secondly, it's one thing to know they were issued. It's another thing to know how well they performed. I'd want to know how the troops judged the overall performance. And lastly, procurement of firearms can be motivated by all sorts of considerations. Performance and quality aren't always the only factor. Price might have been the only concern. Maybe the Glocks were the only things the Northmen could afford.

QUOTE]


The question was about Glocks and cold.Nordic countries that can afford to equip their militaries with whatever they would like choose to use the Glock.In the case of Norway,the Glock 17 replaced the P35 which in turn replaced the 1911.Sweden and Finland both have arms industries of their own;had they chosen to do so they could have designed and purchased an alternative but felt the Glock was more than good enough.

If you really need a picture,here are 2 Norwegian Glocks in Afghanistan:

 

[Borachon]

If you really need a picture,here are 2 Norwegian Glocks in Afghanistan:

I don't see his insignia. Could you point out his flag or other form of ID so I can tell his country of origin?

Also, they issue TWO Glocks to their soldiers? Wow! One on each hip must make them look like they are in those Westerns when the bad guy carried two!

I'd have preferred a link something like the following to prove that Norway issues Glocks to its troops.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Army

Under "hand weapons"

Sweden...likewise.
Finland....can't confirm it.

Lots of countries issue Glocks to their troops, but they aren't the types of countries that routinely fight wars either.

 

[Borachon]

After seeing this, I'll stick with my original "no thanks".

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/g17-breaks.html

 

[S&W620]

I am not trying to offend anyone with this but I feel a few things need to be said on the subject.
1. The whole "SHTF" idea. To me, the whole SHTF idea is absurd. In my opinion, if there is ANY need at all to use a gun than I think any gun in working order should do just fine. If you are refering to an invasion of your house by 50 guys armed with machine guns then it probably won't matter if you grabbed the 1911 or the glock will it?
2. GLOCKS melting? GLOCK claims their guns are resistant up to 158 deg. So I don't see how this can even be a legitimate argument. Oh, I forgot about the whole idea of your gun being caught in a fire at the SAME TIME you need to use it.
I guess I don't have an opinion either way except that the SHTF concept of needing a gun to be reliable in snow, water, sand, mud, heat and cold all at once against a multitude of armed assailants is ridiculous and if the situation ever would occur, you would need a S.W.A.T. team, not a pistol. The most likely scenario is one or two desperate individuals trying to harm you or those you care about. In this situation I think we can all agree that either the GLOCK or the 1911 will do just fine with proper training.
AGAIN, this is just my humble opinion and two cents.

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

Borachon,

100 buck bet says that Glock will still fire ...

 

[Borachon]

if the situation ever would occur, you would need a S.W.A.T. team

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the meaning behind SHTF. I'll try to explain. SHTF means that you are largely without the typical societal safety nets to come to your aid. You are largely on your own, or limited to a few trusted friends, family, or possibly church or other organization members that you know.
SHTF doesn't mean a break-in robbery (to me at any rate) where you still have the option of calling the Police and have a reasonable expectation that they will arrive in a timely manner but instead more like a breakdown in government (sudden dictatorship, let's say), or a huge natural disaster (New Madrid finally gives way) or massive disease vector hits the nation (Smallpox, for example), or a sudden Pearl Harbor like invasion (The Swiss have been just WAITING for their chance). SHTF means to me that things have totally and absolutely fallen apart. The old rules are gone.

In a SHTF situation, I'd be reluctant to call SWAT...because they might be low on ammo, and decide that mine needed to be "confiscated" for their use.

100 buck bet says that Glock will still fire ...

Actually it does look like the barrel is still good. Wow...this is a revelation. I was wrong! Glocks Rule! The subjugation of the Overlord Steel has now been usurped by its new master Plastic Polymer! Bow down before your new master ! Worship at his alter! No more rust! Lighter weight for all! And...and.....!!!

Ok, I'm over it.

 

[Rob96]

After seeing this, I'll stick with my original "no thanks".

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/g17-breaks.html

That kind of looks like the pictures I have seen of the Springfields that were breaking their slides just before the dust cover.

 

[stevelyn]

Which SHTF Pistol......

Glock without a doubt.

Speaking of temperature extremes, how would/does the polymer hold up in extreme cold?

The Alaska State Troopers, North Slope Borough PD and about 90% of the agencies in Alaska including my own issue Glocks. In my experience with Glocks in sub zero temps of the Interior, the polymer frames do just fine. I haven't heard of any issues with them from any other agency either.

 

[Ares]

In regards to the original question... my 1911... So far it's failed all of 0 times and I don't own a Glock (yet). I do own a Ruger KP89 with a similar failure rate... Zero... but it's not as comfortable to carry or shoot as a 1911.

 

[Glocker]

GLOCK G18 would be my pick for SHTF gun ( If I had one ) my vote for a SHTF gun would be a Glock G21. I have not had much luck with a 1911, my Glocks I have never, never, never, did I say never had the first problem, GOD LOVE GASTON GLOCK, LONG LIVE THE MAN !!!! Hay, I'm on a Glock high right now, wow dude you gotta love it.

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

A 1911 only 2 redeeming qualities are...

1. It is in .45 apc...
2. It has a flawless single stage trigger if done correctly...

Detractions from the End All Be All of Handguns the 1911

1. The the trigger-Too light for a combat weapon,IMHO, great for the range though
2. It is in .45 APC-meaning it carries less ammo, unless you get a double stack 1911, which takes away from the slim profile...

 

[MarshallDodge]

This argument could go on all day....kinda like Democrats and Republicans
I personally feel the Glock and the 1911 are an excellent design. As stated already, the Glock has an advantage in the weight department and the 1911 in the trigger. I like good triggers

I carry either a Kahr E9(very Glock like) or Kimber Custom Target. I don't like the feel of a polymer framed gun when I fire it. In my hands the polymer feels like it is flexing and I can't get used to the feeling so I don't own any polymer guns-good or bad.

As far as reliability I have personally seen issues from both guns. The original mil-spec 1911 with its lose tolerances is very reliable in a nasty environment just like a Glock. In a recent 3-gun match I shot my Kimber Gold Match(very tight gun) and it functioned flawlessly. Everybody else had Glocks except one and there were two malfunctions from the Glocks that really surprised me.

The last thing I like about the 1911 is the grip size. It fits my hand very well and my wife's. She has shot Beretta's, Glock's, S&W, and besides her Colt Detective Special really likes the 1911.
THAT'S WHAT COUNTS!
Make sure you are very comfortable and accurate with your chosen pistol. My first pistol was a "gotta have it" Taurus PT99. Very reliable but I was not very accurate with it. Traded it in for a Colt Gold Cup and have been a 1911 fan ever since.

 

[dsk]

1. It is in .45 apc...
2. It has a flawless single stage trigger if done correctly...

Detractions from the End All Be All of Handguns the 1911

1. The the trigger-Too light for a combat weapon,IMHO, great for the range though
2. It is in .45 APC-meaning it carries less ammo, unless you get a double stack 1911, which takes away from the slim profile...

Ummm... it's .45ACP

By the way, neither the Glock nor the 1911 are the "end all be all" of handguns. That would be a rifle, subgun or shotgun (take your pick). I stated very early in this thread that simply being one of the few still packing would make you leagues above everybody else, but it seems people still want to argue about what temperature their handguns will melt.

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

Tounge in cheek, is a lost art,

Ummm... it's .45ACP
By the way, neither the Glock nor the 1911 are the "end all be all" of handguns. That would be a rifle, subgun or shotgun (take your pick).

Thanx for the proof read, but my points stand.


Ummm, not to be a smart ass or nothing BUT(you knew it was coming), since when is a rifle, subgun, or shotgun, the end all be all of ,"HANDGUNS"!? None of my handguns seem to," shoulder",as well as any rifle, shotgun, or subgun...

 

[Borachon]

The Alaska State Troopers, North Slope Borough PD and about 90% of the agencies in Alaska including my own issue Glocks. In my experience with Glocks in sub zero temps of the Interior, the polymer frames do just fine. I haven't heard of any issues with them from any other agency either.

Sure. Sure. Glad to know that. And I encourage you to continue using and trusting your Glock. I'm sure it will never fail.

Like this one did.

I'm actually moving away from the idea of trying to convince people to change out their Glocks. Given that I feel they won't last when put under SEVERE conditions of stress the same way steel would, it makes sense for me to encourage you to go with what I consider to be an inferior gun. In a SHTF situation, I'll have a working firearm and you won't....sounds like a good situation to me.

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

Bocharon,

Now you are just whining because everybody doesn't want to drink the ,"1911-ade". In case you didn't know it, the 1911 even as the ,"end all be all firearm", it was constructed by a MAN(or atleast a man-made machine), and therefore subject to laws of nature, and physics, and prone to all man made defects which can, will, and have caused corrosion, explosion,or invasion(by Gremlins)!!!! EVEN THE END ALL BE ALL 1911, has suffered a catastrophic failure at some point in it's history ,don't you suppose?...

So good, I am glad you have decided to let me carry my inferior Glock, and be happy with it. If I ever have to put my gun into a fire, retrieve it, and then shoot it, I will gladly say you are right,or switch to my BUG, whichever comes first.