"Without hand fighting skills, you are just a walking holster"

Howland937 said:

Thanks. I've wondered if the expectation would be that someone with training in martial arts would need to use it prior to resorting to other methods of defense.
And if they'd have to prove that their training wasn't sufficient to remedy that particular situation.

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In my view that's kind of like someone telling a knife attack victim they should have used their pepper spray before their firearm, because they had the pepper spray. Unarmed martial arts, is still unarmed.

Homicide (the killing of another human being) is considered very serious no matter how it happens. The question that arises with respect to the law is "was it justified?". Answering this question may be extremely complex.

The definition of deadly force I learned in the Navy, 30+ years ago, is "that amount of force that I know, or should know, may result in death or serious bodily harm, to be used as a last resort when all lesser means have failed or cannot reasonably be employed".

Having read up on deadly force as applied to civilian life, I've come to realize that it's much the same...the difference between civilian and military life being in WHEN it's justified ("authorized" in the military).

If you kill, or seriously injure, another human being there WILL be an investigation. The purpose of that investigation is to discover if sufficient evidence exists to charge you with a crime, such as murder, manslaughter, assault, etc. If insufficient evidence can be found which says what happened was NOT justified by statute, then charges will be preferred.

It is important to understand that it does not matter whether you had a weapon or were bare handed...the investigation will be conducted and a decision rendered accordingly.


"But, but, but! My assailant had a knife/gun!"

The circumstances IN THEIR TOTALITY are what guide the results of the investigation.

"BUT HE HAD A GUN!"

The. Circumstances. In. Their. TOTALITY. Are. What. Guide. The. Results. Of. The. Investigation.


Every event is described by its own unique set of circumstances and there is NO AUTOMATIC GET OUT OF JAIL FREE CARD to be had simply by saying something like "he was armed and I wasn't".

Some examples:

- If it turns out you were the instigator, you're in a world of hurt.

- If it turns out the attacker broke off and attempted to flee and you pursued to cause him serious bodily harm or death, you're in a world of hurt.

- If it turns out you pursued an intentional path of extreme disparity of force against your attacker, deliberately seeking his serious injury or death when it appeared you could have stopped the attack with significantly less force, you are in a world of hurt.


I've said it before: I'm no lawyer.

But I'm smart enough to realize that the law doesn't give us a "blank check" under prescribed circumstances to use deadly force "just because". And I'm also smart enough to realize that even if I DO believe I've kept strictly in accordance with the jurisdictional statutes on deadly force that I may still be charged and tried criminal and civil courts, and therefore it behooves me to find an expert in the law to defend me.

This is a gun forum, and a great many of us carry a firearm for defense (or duty for LEO/military). This thread in particular discusses aspects of martial arts. This REQUIRES us to understand the underlying basics which attend the use of deadly force, with or without a weapon. We don't have to have a law degree for this, but that doesn't mean we can afford to be ignorant on the subject.

Old Dog said:

Wow, you look much older in your photo ...
Pretty much the reason that, though I went through my love affair with TKD and a small bit of karate (after an amateur boxing career spanning my early teens into my early twenties), I ended up getting serious about Krav Maga and the more practical training I was afforded through my jobs. Spin kicks may look pretty to the uninitiated, but the serious guys are just gonna kill you anyway. Plus, at my age (not to mention two wrecked shoulders, a faulty back, after three knee surgeries with wrists and hands riddled with arthritis), I fully realize that if I have to go the ground, it's not lookin' very good for me.

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Yea well you look dead in your photo (just like mine).

Anyway I agree with what you're saying. One of the guys I trained with who was a BB told me he got into a tussle with a friend of his who was a BB in TKD and he tried all that fancy crap and ended up pinned against the wall.

The style of Kempo I studied was more simular to KM as far as current popular MA's go.

When I was practicing the Gracie name and UFC was just barely becoming known and even back then I had an interest in BJJ. I never got into it and regret it big time. KM is just as popular now from what I see and seems to be worthwhile.

Makes no difference to me as my legs are pretty much shot so I'm literally relying on HAND to HAND skills lol.

RetiredUSNChief said:

The circumstances IN THEIR TOTALITY are what guide the results of the investigation.

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Bears repeating.

Use of force, and use of deadly force, when justified is simply a response to the aggressor's/attacker's actions. There is no "continuum" any more (it's not a "ladder" you climb, attempting first one response and then another should the first one not work) -- there is behavior, and there is an appropriate response. If someone presents to you a lethal force situation, be it disparity of force or an actual weapon, you are (should be) justified in responding with lethal force.

Good Ol' Boy said:

Yea well you look dead in your photo (just like mine).

Anyway I agree with what you're saying. One of the guys I trained with who was a BB told me he got into a tussle with a friend of his who was a BB in TKD and he tried all that fancy crap and ended up pinned against the wall.

The style of Kempo I studied was more simular to KM as far as current popular MA's go.

When I was practicing the Gracie name and UFC was just barely becoming known and even back then I had an interest in BJJ. I never got into it and regret it big time. KM is just as popular now from what I see and seems to be worthwhile.

Makes no difference to me as my legs are pretty much shot so I'm literally relying on HAND to HAND skills lol.

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Old Dog said:

Bears repeating.

Use of force, and use of deadly force, when justified is simply a response to the aggressor's/attacker's actions. There is no "continuum" any more (it's not a "ladder" you climb, attempting first one response and then another should the first one not work) -- there is behavior, and there is an appropriate response. If someone presents to you a lethal force situation, be it disparity of force or an actual weapon, you are (should be) justified in responding with lethal force.

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Well you two may have photos making you look dead but I'm standing in the middle of the road ...

Regarding the concerns over the liabilities that may come with various types of hand to hand training- I think it would be a better position to be in to be scrutinized for something like snapping a person's arm, dislocating a shoulder, breaking an orbital or jaw, or similar "street fight maladies" vs placing a couple of bullets in someone's body or a spyderco in their neck. Worrying about my actions as an amateur unranked martial arts hobbyist after the fact is going to be non existent on my priority list. When and if a time comes that my actions need to be explained, I actually have a guy who does that for me. He has been to law school, so he's much more qualified on that sort of stuff than I would ever be. Since I pay him to do a job, I allow him to do it.

I'll be the first to admit, I've become somewhat complacent in the field of unarmed combat. It's been years since i was in any sort of physical altercation, and even then, the combination of being a 6 ft, 250+lbs person who does physical labor for a living, and having the ability to discern an opportune moment to go from passive attempt at de-escalation to violent force of action, has allowed me to remain largely unscathed in the few times I HAVE been caught up in a fight.

That said, realizing that criminal elements prefer ambush tactics, my mindset in a defensive position would generally be to meet and break the attack and then seperate, gain distance and time to assess whether i need to increase the level of force or simply leg it.

Unfortunately, due to my physical attributes and (i think) better than average SA, i dont exactly convey the sense of "victim" on my own, and so suspect I'm more likely to be on the defensive in the presence of others less able to defend themselves, so at that point, the "leg it" option is likely less valid. At that point, i have historically found that the legal ramifications generally become moot in my mind; I simply cannot stand by and watch someone prey on those who cannot defend themselves.

I agree that fighting skills are a plus, but at some point they do no good because of advanced age. At that point you have to rely on situational awareness and shooting skills .

pbearperry said:

I agree that fighting skills are a plus, but at some point they do no good because of advanced age. At that point you have to rely on situational awareness and shooting skills .

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At least someone pointed out the obvious with the above quoted post. Those that want to go hand to hand good luck!

Corpral_Agarn said:

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I rolled with a new-to-me guy last night and he was quite the spaz. He's been doing bjj for a year now.

I kept up with him for a while but he liked to wrap my leg and apply a lot of pressure to it. I know the move from my wrestling days.
It isn't used for anything other than inflicting pain. It won't make you tap or anything but your calf will be purple and sore the next few days.

Even against blue and purple belts, this kid was my least favorite rolling partner.

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Jerks like that real frustrated me. Using painful and dirty tactics to try and get a cheap "win". Unfortunately, I was too young and stupid to realize that I wasn't in a fraternity (that would kick me out for complaining about some kind of hazing), but that I was a paying customer.

Today, I'd just tell them straight that I'm not here to be subjected to their dirty tactics. I'm here to learn. If they didn't stop, I'd be talking to whoever was in charge.

Though I suppose another avenue might be to just tap as soon as he begins to do something like that.....and keep tapping every single time, til he gets confused and asks what's up. At which point you might explain what sort of dirty street move you would be doing in return if this was a self defense situation rather than practice.

pbearperry said:

I agree that fighting skills are a plus, but at some point they do no good because of advanced age. At that point you have to rely on situational awareness and shooting skills .

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I expect those skills will abandon you too one day. My dad used to say getting old ain't for wimps.

Phaedrus/69 said:

I expect those skills will abandon you too one day. My dad used to say getting old ain't for wimps.

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I am rapidly getting there for sure.

Kleanbore said:

I am concerned that training in traditional hand and feet fighting games, where the strategies, rules, and objectives are not the same as in realistic self defense encounters, could teach the wrong skills and ignore some of the right ones.

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This is kind of like saying shooting USPSA is worthless to a patrolman. Yes, one does not equate to the other... but skills are transferable.

I would take a guy that plays basketball 2x a week in a fight just because of balance, strength, and hand eye coordination.

I agree with the trainer in OP. Ive probably been hit in the head first 4-5 times and 3 of those were from behind.

Its hard to say what a likely SD encounter will be but theres a fair chance it will start with a sucker punch or a tackle when you arent expecting it. I would wager a good boxer with minimal firearms training would fair better than a great shooter with no hand to hand experience in most situations.

I'm not sure the specific techniques, learned to perfection, are really the issue. Nor is strength, flexibility, and youth. The point, really, is being comfortable enough with physical combat that if it should ever happen in real life, you don't lock up in shock and confusion but rather go into "Oh yeah, this again" mode.

I certainly am not getting any younger, and Covid has put an end to effective hand-to-hand training at least in my neighborhood. But I've been hit enough to know that it's generally not a big deal, and have defended and counterattacked often enough that it's ingrained.

And that's the point: not that I'm Chuck Norris who can take out a dozen bad guys with a spinning heel kick, but that I'm an old fat man who is comfortable throwing an elbow at an attacker so that I have time and space to get to my weapon.

<edit> And perhaps most of all, that one need not be a black belt in some ancient Japanese art, but rather that three months at a Krav gym can be pretty helpful.

.38 Special said:

I'm not sure the specific techniques, learned to perfection, are really the issue. Nor is strength, flexibility, and youth. The point, really, is being comfortable enough with physical combat that if it should ever happen in real life, you don't lock up in shock and confusion but rather go into "Oh yeah, this again" mode.

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I agree!

When I first started BJJ, I didn't know it was called that because the guys I was training under were teaching "ground defense" as a supplemental course to some striking martial arts (which I wasn't involved in). The first thing I did when I was put under a top mount, was push straight up with both arms to throw the trainer off. Well, I got an armbar for my trouble. And apparently, what I did is what almost anyone who doesn't know about armbars would do.

So, yeah, maybe you know about armbars and you won't do that if mounted. But what else is there that you don't know, that you can't defend against, but instead might blindly walk into?

I can't roll like I used to, but I still remember how to put up a good defense. So I got what I came for.

If you're even somewhat serious about this, I highly recommend Krav Maga, Systema, Escrima and other armed martial arts, providing that you're able to access the real deal and not just a watered down pyjama party some/most commercial variations of them are.

I started with judo in the 70's, switched over to Tae Kwon Do in the 80's Choy Li Fut Kung Fu in early 90's and only when I found (military) Krav Maga in late 90's I realized that training with no rules whatsoever is the way to go. It's brutal, during the first year I broke ribs twice and injuries are not uncommon. On the other hand you train a lot with knives, batons, improvised weapons and guns, including disarming techniques of armed assailants and a holistic behavioral techniques when approached, how to avoid situations and so on.

Later on there's a lot of controversial stuff, including techniques to turn a slung/non-slung SMG of an armed guard against him when you're stopped to verify your ID, advanced distraction methods and so on.

Intense but a lot of fun. It's quite understandable that most commercial training facilities never go nearly this far.

Corpral_Agarn said:

Managed to get some BJJ in Monday and Tuesday (last) night.

Two nights in a row is pretty rough. I like it because I don't forget as much between nights, but it is pretty rough on the body.
I'm feeling pretty beat up.

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Yep, tell me about it. I do MMA tues and thurs, and a kickbox session wens. nights. I also do my own PT and shadow boxing mon, wens, fri mornings. I also hunt most mon and fri afternoons. Sore is my new normal.