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"Without hand fighting skills, you are just a walking holster"

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Corpral_Agarn, Oct 30, 2020.

  1. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That could well be on point.

    It could tend to further weaken any defense based on disparity of force
     
  2. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    I have an article from a legal journal which indicates there could be added liability from training.

    Gonzaga Law Review

    31 GONZLR 413


    (Cite as: 31 Gonz. L. Rev. 413)


    1995-96


    *413 EMPTY HANDS, [FNa1]DEEP POCKETS: TORT LIABILITY AND POTENTIAL FOR

    RECOVERY AGAINST INDIVIDUALS APPLYING MARTIAL ARTS TRAINING IN SELF-DEFENSE


    Bryan P. Whitaker [FNaa1]
    Their conclusion:

    There may be newer ones but it seems pretty much like any SD weapons use. The nuance about kids is interesting.
     
  3. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Good question, but the answer is going to depend on whether the level of force used was appropriate to the threat presented, that the level of force used was necessary to stop the actions of the subject and prevent death or serious bodily injury. Massad Ayoob has amply documented how a good defense attorney (or expert witness) can negate a prosecutor's attempt to show excessive force was used simply because the victim who prevailed could be considered "highly trained" or even just somewhat more skilled than the average citizen.
     
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  4. DT Guy

    DT Guy Member

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    The 'perception of control' (as LEO trainers used to refer to it) is based on size, proximity, PERCEIVED skill level and level of aggression. If you are facing an opponent who is 8" taller and 80# heavier than you, who has adopted a fighting stance that indicates some formal training and is shouting "I'm going to kill you!" while beating his chest, you can make the case that you perceived a disparity of force.


    Larry
     
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  5. Howland937

    Howland937 Member

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    I'm sure a lot would depend on each individual situation. I guess I was wondering more along the lines of "he only had a knife. With your training, you could have just broken his arm instead of shooting him"
    You know, like the cops "coulda tased him or shot him in the leg"
     
  6. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    I mean, the guy's not wrong but what do you add to that?

    If your purpose is self-defense and you need to have a well-rounded self defense strategy but a lot of us are bald-headed old white guys who are well past our prime and we're getting old and stiff and fat.

    I'll do my best but I don't have any reasonable expectation of defeating a younger, faster, stronger person in any kind of extended hand to hand combat
     
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  7. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    Day 2 of BJJ

    Turns out the gi just makes it easier for your opponent to strangle you LOL
    (technically I knew this already but to experience it is interesting)

    I enjoyed the experience but am still pretty slow on the uptake. My opponents are some kind of land octopi.

    I adjusted my firearms instruction times to fit a few more nights learning the BJJ
     
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  8. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    3rd night of BJJ

    still having a good time. The community seems to be welcoming to new people.
    I am surviving a little bit better and picking up techniques as best i can.

    I still am not able to establish finishes on my opponents, but I am doing a little better about not getting in bad situations.

    I like that my group has a strong interest in avoiding injuries.
     
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  9. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    My first few weeks of training were kind of a haze. Literally everyone in the gym could beat me up, and most of them demonstrated it. But they also were very friendly and helpful, kept me on track, and let me soak everything in. After those first weeks I started to figure out where all the pieces were supposed to go, but I surely do remember a time when I felt lost in the wilderness.

    Keep it up!
     
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  10. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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    I am an advocate for having some HTH CQ training.

    I myself practiced years ago in Okinawan Kempo.

    That being said, as others have mentioned virtually all martial arts are basically for sport. Therefore I find it highly hypocritical when certain folks advocate that but ridicule things like competition shooting.


    I am only 38 and am in decent shape but have health issues particularly with my legs that would make a lot of what I'm knowledgeable in HTH useless. Furthermore it would just be a bad situation to be in a HTH scenario because of the danger to my legs. So aside from avoidance, which is always my first choice, I'm more likely to go to my sidearm should a perceived deadly situation occur.


    What Id really like to find is some type of, and I know this is going to sound completely silly, John Wick type of gun fighting training. What I mean by that is basic defensive HTH that incorporates going for the gun and getting off effective shots at CQ.


    Retention is a separate can of worms but if you're carrying concealed it really shouldn't be an issue. Thats more for duty guys or if you're so inclined to be an OC person, in which case I would look into it.
     
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  11. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Wow, you look much older in your photo ...
    Pretty much the reason that, though I went through my love affair with TKD and a small bit of karate (after an amateur boxing career spanning my early teens into my early twenties), I ended up getting serious about Krav Maga and the more practical training I was afforded through my jobs. Spin kicks may look pretty to the uninitiated, but the serious guys are just gonna kill you anyway. Plus, at my age (not to mention two wrecked shoulders, a faulty back, after three knee surgeries with wrists and hands riddled with arthritis), I fully realize that if I have to go the ground, it's not lookin' very good for me.
     
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  12. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    Well, honestly...personal feelings aside and objectively speaking, is he wrong?

    What is a "martial art" in the first place? By it's most basic definition, they are forms of combat, what with "martial" meaning war-like or appropriate to war.

    If you train with a firearm for self-defense, are you not training in martial arts?

    In doing so, isn't training to retain your weapon also a form of martial arts?

    Martial arts aren't just forms of combat that come from places like China or Japan like many people may think.

    I should think that the instructor was demonstrating a single practical application of what you could learn related to the information that you gave him...which was, by your own words, that you are "a firearms instructor and wanted to bridge the gap in my hands on skills for self defense and general fitness purposes".

    He could just as easily phrased another example, such as "well, without fighting skills what recourse do you have when your weapon is not available?" Or perhaps "well, a better understanding of the body as a machine could help your ability to perform better under stress and with greater accuracy."

    Both of these examples would be true, as well.

    Often times I am rubbed the wrong way by some people's methods of approach. However, the fact of the matter is that this does not mean they are not highly intelligent and capable in their own field, nor that I cannot learn from them.
     
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  13. bratch

    bratch Member

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    Good job getting out and training. I think I’m on year 7 of my BJJ journey.

    Sounds like you found a good gym if they are worried about injuries. My gym tends a bit older and everyone keeps their heads about them and realizes most of us aren’t trying to get to the UFC (we’ve had a few).

    I’d recommend spending some time on the Shivworks and IAC YouTube pages. They are both high level BJJ guys that are integrating weapons into the training.

    https://m.youtube.com/user/ShivWorks


    https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCw6yaLQSFf0BuNsaWqslwLA

    Craig and Cecil both teach on the traveling circuit if they come near you could be an option. Cecil’s are more user friendly and usually a intro for Craig’s classes.
     
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  14. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    I'll check those guys out.

    I've been reviewing "Chewjitsu" and Bernardo Faria BJJ Fanatics on YouTube.

    Seems like some guys who know their stuff.

    I have another gi class tonight. We'll see how it goes.
     
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  15. bratch

    bratch Member

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    I’m not familiar with Chewjitsu but Bernardo is considered one of the best competitors ever so he is definitely a good source for straight BJJ information.
     
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  16. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    Bernardo has others on his channel all the time like Gordan Ryan (World class competitor) and Jeff Danaher (World class coach).

    Chewjitsu is a channel run by retired MMA fighter Nick "Chewy" Albin.
    I like his take on the sport, his humor, and tips for beginners.

    I have a tiny bit of wrestling background and he does a good job speaking to how that helps/hurts.
     
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  17. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    I'm a strong believer in hand-to-hand skills.
    I'm an even stronger believer in not letting the other guy know that you are armed until it is time to use your weapon.
    Surprise es a powerful force multiplier.
     
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  18. 23tony

    23tony Member

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    I trained in various forms of eastern martial arts for some time. Personally, I have always considered firearms training to be part of overall general martial arts training. Those "traditional" MA's who don't see it that way frankly confound me.
     
  19. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Let me add to that.

    Andrew Branca just responded to a question on this.

    An actor who might be justified in defending himself with non-deadly physical force could, for example, destroy a person's joint. Doing so would constitute deadly force.

    Andrew said that a trained martial artist might well be held to a much higher standard, should that happen, than would someone not trained in physical combat.
     
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  20. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    Good to know.

    I still think that the pros outweigh the cons.
     
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  21. Howland937

    Howland937 Member

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    Any idea as to whether a trained individual would be held to a different standard in regards to using deadly force? Not sure I phrased my question clearly previously. Would the threshold of what's considered a threat of death or serious bodily harm differ based on a person's "capability" to defend themself?

    Or was that what you meant with the "disparity of force" comment?
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2020
  22. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    I think so
     
  23. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Comparative skill and fitness could figure in a disparity of force equation.
     
  24. WrongHanded
    • Contributing Member

    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    It's even more interesting when you realize you can do it back using their gi or yours. And you can do it with regular street clothes too.
     
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  25. Howland937

    Howland937 Member

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    Thanks. I've wondered if the expectation would be that someone with training in martial arts would need to use it prior to resorting to other methods of defense.
    And if they'd have to prove that their training wasn't sufficient to remedy that particular situation.
     
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