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"Without hand fighting skills, you are just a walking holster"

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Corpral_Agarn, Oct 30, 2020.

  1. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Very well put, John.
     
  2. Mike OTDP

    Mike OTDP Member

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    I'm a second degree black belt myself. And firmly believe that you really need to have both armed and unarmed techniques in the arsenal. They overlap and complement each other.
     
  3. Howland937

    Howland937 Member

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    I seem to have went in the opposite direction. I only started carrying a few years ago when I decided I no longer liked my odds in the event of going hand to hand with more than one attacker.
    I do know that even if your martial arts training doesn't involve any high intensity physical exertion, there are still lots of benefits. Coordination, flexibility, reflexes, etc...so even people who feel they're too old can possibly find something useful.

    I'd say the comment mentioned in the OP is pretty normal. Granted, not all arts are about actually fighting. Never had much use for the ones that were "strictly defensive" even if self defense is the goal, but even when I did train there was always ego from the instructors as well as students that their way was the only way. Not much different than the different schools of thought on concealed carry. The whole
    "Your kung fu no good"

    If I was to get back into training, I'd be looking for a disciple of Dan Inosanto to study under.
     
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  4. Rexster

    Rexster Member

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    Craig Douglas (Shivworks) has assured me that older students are welcome to train with him. He travels, to locations where someone will host his classes. I drove from the Houston area to near the Dallas area, in Texas, in 2005 and 2006 to attend ECQC. (Extreme Close Quarters Concepts.) I remember that we worked around some infirmities and injuries, that some students had.

    Michael deBethencourt is best-known for snubby revolver training, but he has a strong background in blade and bare-hands training. I only attended his sample-length mini-class, about two hours, while at the Snubby Summit, in 2005, but I think that his classes are age-neutral. His site is snubtraining.com .
     
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  5. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    Weapons retention isn't some dark art that requires a full time martial arts study although each type of self defense does compliment the other (armed and un-armed..). This thread pretty much moved towards all the various martial arts that might pertain (although for some reason no one mentioned aikido...) while weapons retention is a combination of situational awareness, maintaining as much distance between yourself and a possible opponent, and a very few very specific techniques that allow you to hold onto your weapon while breaking away from someone attempting to take it...

    I'll let someone who actually teaches weapons retention to follow up on this, but once again the martial arts are a very good idea for anyone determined to defend themselves with or without a firearm... Weapons retention is not something that requires constant study and practice once you learn the basics... Periodic practice of the basics is all I'd advocate for any armed citizen - as well as an awareness of what factors make you vulnerable to being disarmed....
     
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  6. DT Guy

    DT Guy Member

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    I got my first Aikido belt under Fumio Toyoda, so I'm pretty familiar with it. When I became an instructor-trainer in defensive tactics (Monadnock's MDTS system) I was surprised to find most of the control holds were either straight from Aikido, or based firmly on Aikido principles.

    Having trained a number of public and private agencies in that, I'd just add that the complexity and timing required to 'do' Aikido well is higher than the skills required for the more gross skills (punching, striking, kicking) involved in many of the striking arts. That's pretty common across control techniques, though; subduing someone without injuring them is always more difficult than simply winning the fight.

    Having taught three different weapon retention systems, I'll add that weapon retention is NOT a complex physical skill; the largest part of the training is around mindset, awareness and ensuring the response is as aggressive as possible. It can certainly be taught (the basics, requiring further personal practice, to be sure) in four hours or less.

    Larry
     
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  7. bikerdoc

    bikerdoc Moderator Staff Member

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    A lot of good points made above.
    Let me add one more that has not been discussed.

    Projection!

    Dont look like a victim!

    Obviously situational awareness is #1 , but people say I have a constant scowl, A piercing stare, and body language that exudes a "don't screw with me attitude". Couple that with dressing like a redneck biker gives them food for thought in their "victim selection process"
    Couple of years ago the grand kids wanted slurpies from 7/11.
    We were on the way home from Walmart and stopped at an unfamiliar one, on a well travelled secondary road.
    I see 3 youths hanging out in the parking lot. Make eye contact, posture and go in. We get our slurpies. Going back to the truck, one of them leaves the group and starts walking towards us.
    I see him in my peripheral vision, turn, bring the cane to port arms and stare! Skippy decides he needs to turn and rejoin the group.
    Stay safe out there my brothers.
     
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  8. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    I would prefer to just jump in and see what's what...

    If I am going to be there anyway, I may as well get my hands dirty
     
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  9. Whiskeyhotel2020

    Whiskeyhotel2020 Member

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    I look at it this way. The bad guy gets to pick the when and where. With that in mind I may have to use my hands to create enough space to be able safely reach for and deploy my firearm. Never underestimate your enemy's level of training/stupidity/or resolution.
     
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  10. Hangingrock

    Hangingrock Member

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    If most people would get their head out of where the sun don't shine and be more observant of their environment there would be a lot less criminal confrontation issues.
     
  11. psyopspec

    psyopspec Member

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    Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding the premise here, but how did the instructor's underscoring the importance of retention training rub you the wrong way? What's your position on weapon retention?
     
  12. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    The same as yours, probably.

    Retention is a critical skill when it comes to defensive forearms training. Any instructor will likely say the same.

    I thought I posted the part that rubbed me...

    It's the implication that you cannot be effective at defensive gun use without martial arts training. It indicates, to me, a shallow level of understanding of the defensive shooting community and what is practiced and taught.

    But, I acknowledge that there is a gap in my hand skills that I intend to make smaller... Hence the pursuit of hand skills training.
     
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  13. psyopspec

    psyopspec Member

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    Ah right on. "X will get you killed in the streets" a solid indicator of bloviation, true. On the other hand, most armed citizens don't give a single though to weapon retention. Makes sense if you're an odds person, I get it. On the other hand getting killed with my own gun is one of the most embarrassing ways to go that I can imagine.
     
  14. mlankton

    mlankton Member

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    some of us are into martial arts or mma, but I bet the vast majority of us haven't been in a fight since high school or even before, so you won't have any muscle memory to guide you in a hand to hand situation. I have a little different perspective on this because of my profession I may get into a physical altercation at any time, so I'm never too far away from the last time I laid hands on someone or had hands laid on me.

    Things happen ridiculously fast when it becomes physical, and if you are not accustomed to it I can totally see how easy it would be for someone to go "deer in the headlights". I mean, most of us live in a rational world where we don't have to fight for survival and we are used to a safe and civil existence within our community.

    That said, I have no problem with what the guy said to you and you should take it to heart. He wasn't saying it to be a jerk, it's just the honest truth. At the very least, basic training in spontaneous knife defense and some sort of basic martial arts training, pick your discipline, could only benefit any of us. Real world crisis situations never play out according to any plan, you can't anticipate them beyond a few moments in time, and you need to be able to adapt quickly to deal with them without having to think it through. Mat time won't hurt anyone that is physically capable of taking the training.
     
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  15. Meeks36

    Meeks36 Member

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    So you would marry a woman or man. Sight unseen? To me its the same. If you are not compatible then training will suck. The reason I dropped my personal trainer. We didnt click.
     
  16. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Hardly comparable.

    I've signed up for defensive pistol training without having audited a session.
     
  17. Meeks36

    Meeks36 Member

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    How long was the training?
     
  18. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    He's not wrong at all. I signed up for lessons from a really crappy Tae Kwon Do school in Colorado Springs. I think it was a 6 month contract whether you came to class or not. The instruction was sub par to say the least and I quit going. He sent a collection agency after me.

    I'll never sign a contract without auditing the class again (not that any classes are available right now anyway).
     
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  19. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Signing up for a class is comparable to marriage?

    I suggest that the issue was with the terms of the contract, and not with your not having audited the class.

    I would never enter into a six month contract without an escape clause.
     
  20. Armored farmer

    Armored farmer Member

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    My brother in law has been jujitsu instructor for probably 20 years.
    He says he likes to see youngsters in his class. It helps stop the bullying that causes so many problems for kids. Also good for agility, strength, and confidence . He not only teaches the fight skills, but also the mental discipline to let things go.
    I rather agree with @Corpral_Agarn instructor
     
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  21. WrongHanded
    • Contributing Member

    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    Just a quick thought on the whole "walking holster" thing: If you don't know how to grapple, stop by a Brazilian jiujitsu gym and see how you hold up against some of the white belts who've earned a few stripes. That's a real eye opener for most people.
     
  22. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    I'll give you that one

    If I'd audited the class I never would have signed up
     
  23. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

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    I'm not saying to use hand to hand or pepper spray to take someone on. If you're threatened with deadly force you should respond in kind. However, as I said earlier most SD encounters don't call for deadly force.

    If the only tool you have is a hammer you see every problem as a nail. Someone said that.
     
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  24. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    Mike has retired from his cop career. Last I heard from him, he was now able to devote a lot more time to the I'm with Roscoe private board (I think it's still $44 for 2 years). It has a FB and a MeWe presence, as well as the primary website w/forums. Mas made me aware of it and suggested I might like the folks, and he was right. :)
    https://www.imwithroscoe.com/
     
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  25. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    This is where folks need to be able to access the conscious decision-making knowledge basis (should I?) and the appropriate ingrained subconscious (unconscious competence) physical response, at the same time, without having to stop and review the mental Rolodex and check list. If you have to stop and think it through, you're likely going to be trailing behind your attacker in the OODA Loop.

    You don't want to be lacking in either area. You need to already have the acquired knowledge of the laws and appropriateness of the response, meaning you already need to instantly recognize the difference between a Bare Fear and a Reasonable Fear in some dynamic situation ... and once the conscious decision is made regarding an appropriate response to some situation, the physical response needed is faster if it's already accessible at the subconscious level.

    You think a major league baseball player has time to review and think about the 100mph fastball coming at him? Once he decides to start the swing, the mechanics of the swing has to occur without needing further conscious thought. His training, practice and previous experience kicks in to accomplish the task.
     
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