Marlin 39 Postal Match 2

[JustsayMo]

Mal, when you see Johnmcl's targets and you'll know he's not kidding.

John, you (and a few others) know you're just going to shoot the 'little x' out of the leaf and make it hard to score anyway..

 

[JustsayMo]

The results will be posted ASAP. I'm taking the wife out so it'll be later tonight or early tomorrow morning.

 

[johnmcl]

Mo,

You know, a match shooting a little closer in would be a ton of fun too. Say something like 10 or 15 yds?

On the shooting, believe me, it is nothing inherent in me. I had my DNA permanently altered by Gunnery Sgt Kowalski many years ago. That DNA imprint is around long after he decided to take over a half acre of hell. I think he was promoted to Master Sgt there...

 

[Slugless]

At the range I go to the minimum distance for rifle shooting is 25 yards.

For a cloverleaf shoot, I'd rather standing position instead of "John Wayne;" w/ JW style it was easier for me to shoot for a consistent sight picture rather than "COM" of a little heart.

How about a "Lucky Charms" shoot? Or a leprechaun-shaped steel silhouette?


I'm waiting with bated breath for the results!

 

[AStone]

Three shots per target with one shot per leaf is the COF.
The sum of the three distances from hole to leaf center is that card's score.
Low score of all cards submitted wins.

John,

When I first read that, I misunderstood it. On closer inspection, yeah, I think we're on the same page, er card, er leaf.

In fact, it seems (on first thought at least) a simple solution to the problem I was having scoring 3 shots on 3 different leaves.

I'm attaching an image that I photoshoped to illustrate the challenge. I was thinking "distance to leaf center" meant distance to center of the three leaflets (i.e., in the center of leaflets; see my image). {Note: there's a bit of botany confusion here; I think a leaf is all three subleaves, w/ each little part being a "leaflet", though I could be wrong.}

But if we can construct the cloverleaf with a uniform size and shape, then make the center of each leaflet the target, then a direct hit in the center of each leaflet would result in a score of 0 + 0 + 0 = 0, perfect score.

Perhaps three circles drawn using nickels (quarters?) that touch each other without overlapping?

 

[johnmcl]

Nematocyst,

Let's get out definitions straight. There are three leaves to a shamrock. I am proposing that we shoot three shots at a shamrock, one to each leaf.

I was thinking we'd score to the center of each leaf. Then we don't care what the actual size of shamrock is as its only the distance to the center of the leaf that counts. For example, a center shot in a 2 in circle is as good as a center shot in a 2.25 in circle.

Can you see this in the accompanying diagram? Thoughts?

 

[johnmcl]

Style

So what about a using a barricade style rest for this shoot?

The idea would be to use a range bag our something similar for the gun's barrel, shooting off the bench. No rear rest is allowed. You have to 'peek' over the top of the barricade to shoot the targets.

This is like shooting over the sideboards of a covered wagon. Get the idea?

Thoughts?

 

[AStone]

Let's get out definitions straight. There are three leaves to a shamrock. I am proposing that we shoot three shots at a shamrock, one to each leaf.

I agree, John. Let's just call each of those three things a "leaf".

{Background for me that caused my initial confusion: I'm a biologist. Technically, each of those three things on clovers and shamrocks are not "leaves" but "leaflets", because they share a common stem. But - again - let's not concern ourselves with that distinction. It's moot here since this is a shooting match, not a botany lesson. }

I like your scoring algorithm. Seems simple enough IF the scorer can actually determine what dead center is. For example, in your bottom diagram, technically the top shot (A) is not dead center since part of the X is exposed.

When we're using a single "spot", we can calculate the distance between the center of each hole, and sum those distances for a score. Obviously for three shots, a single hole would produce lowest score.

Here, we'd be using three different "spots" as target, so the scoring gets a bit trickier.

Does that make sense?

Thoughts anyone?

Gee, this is fun. Even creating the match is fun, even if shooting it is more so.

Nem

 

[johnmcl]

Well, let's think about simplifying life here.

How about we shoot at a green circle of any size that fits on a 3x5 index card with the center marked with an 'x'. Fire three times, and the minimum total distance to the center wins?

What about five shots? I'm still up for the barricade rest off the bench.

 

[Slugless]

I agree with:

* John's scoring system (sum of distance to center)
* Barricade rest (perfect for my range!)
* Nem's biology lesson

Personally I don't care if we call them leafs, leaves, or leaflets as long as I can shoot them....

 

[AStone]

Personally I don't care if we call them leafs, leaves, or leaflets as long as I can shoot them....

<laughs>

Yep. Agreed there.

I still like the idea of 3 different targets - like three different green circles or green leafs - rather than just one X.

For me, that adds an element of challenge - both in shooting and scoring - and breaks away from the same ol'.

 

[Fast Frank]

Well, speaking of the next match...

I just looked at the "Two Gun Match" poll.

It seems that 15 percent voted no because they don't have a pistol or don't want to shoot a two gun match.

That's enough for me. I can't see pushing 15 percent of the model 39 shooters out because some of us like to shoot pistols.

This IS the 39 club, after all!

In my mind, that's a dead issue.

I wonder if shooting a model 39 match that includes any other Marlin lever gun for extra points might get more votes?

Has anybody seen Mo lately? I think he has a trophy or something for me...

 

[johnmcl]

Frank,

I think Mo is out with Ms. Mo tonight. Something about Valentine's Day. Either that or he's laughed himself into a coma on our scores.

Sorry to hear the two gun is dead. That would have been fun too. I have a single six to go with the 39.

 

[Slugless]

I like 3 different targets. John's right, however, that 1 circle would be simpler. I'd take either but 3 targets is a good variation.

5 shots vs. 3 shots?

5 shots is tougher. I usually shoot 5 shot groups and there's always a flyer.

For those of us who are more proficient at shooting than I am that may not be a problem. But 3 shots are less likely to have a flyer and that adds an element of chance to the game.

In other words, even inconsistent shooters like me can deliver 3 good shots and that makes it more likely to score well.

5 shot groups will definitely show who are the best shooters among us. 5 shot groups would make me practice more.

 

[Slugless]

FFrank, I'm not sure we should kill the 2 gun match just yet. I suggest we table it for now and shoot a couple different 39A matches, like a 50 yard standing beercan match.

We've talked about an open class match, i.e. any .22 lever rifle owner can compete, esp. His Divine Shadow who couldn't buy a 39A.

The 2 gun match would be good for open class. 15% of Marlin owners couldn't compete but Browning & Henry & Winchester owners could shoot. A problem might be too many entries!

 

[Fast Frank]

I wouldn't mind shooting against the Henrys and what not, but we sure don't want to relax the rules enough to allow "Super Mod" guns in.

They will clean our clocks!

Heck, even my model 60 (Totally unmodified) will shoot groups half the size of what my 39 does.

 

[Fast Frank]

OK the poll just ended.

18.29 percent voted against including pistols in a model 39 postal match.

Maybe we could shoot a simultaneous event with pistols, but I don't think we should include pistols as part of a model 39 match.

You know... "Here's the rules for the 39 shoot, and if you want you can shoot the same event with a pistol as another class."

I don't think we should make it so a guy with a 39 and a pistol can score higher than a guy with just a model 39.

Penalizing almost 20 percent of our club just isn't right.

Having a guy say "I shot the best Model 39 target in the whole event, but that dude with the model 39 and a Ruger pistol got a higher score!" just wouldn't do.

After all, it IS the MODEL 39 CLUB!

 

[JustsayMo]

The official match results

The High Road Marlin 39 Club 2008 Valentines Challenge

Unmagnified John Wayne Style
Shooter Model Sights Position Conditions Ammo Score Notes
1st Place Slugless Mountie Skinner JW 60* Sunny Fed Gold medal 1.007 1958
2nd Place- DJR 39AS Factory JW 30* wind 10-15 CCI Green Tag 1.226 2007
3rd Place- Angus LincolnAngus Lincoln 39A Factory JW 25* Sunny Remington Golden 1.397" New
4-MalH 39AS Williams JW Clear 72* Lapua multi-match 2.026" 1999
5-Fast Frank 39A Factory JW Overcast Mini Mag 2.209 1950
6-Mrs. Jaguar 39A Skinner JW 70* Windy Fed 36gr HP bulk 2.324" 2006
7-Gus3836 39AS Marble Tang JW 32* Fed Champion 2.47" Late 1990's
8-JustsayMo 39A Mountie Factory JW 37* Rain Fed 36gr HP bulk 2.790" 1965
9-Jaguar 39A Skinner JW 70* Windy Fed 36gr HP bulk 3.389" 2006


Unmagnified Freestyle
Shooter Model Sights Position Conditions Ammo Score Notes
1st - Fast Frank 39A Factory Bench Overcast Mini Mag .785" 1950
He predicted and delivered victory! Atta boy!

2nd MalH 39AS Williams Bench Clear 72* Lapua Multi-Match .865" 1999
3rd- Mrs. Jaguar 39A Skinner sit/bench 70* Windy Fed 36gr HP bulk 0.999 2006
4-Jaguar 39A Skinner sit/bench 70* Windy Fed 36gr HP bulk 1.009 2006
5-DJR 39AS Factory Bench 30* wind 10-15 CCI Green Tag 1.121 2007
6-Gus3836 39AS Marble Tang Bench 32* Fed Champion 1.53 late 1990's
7-JustsayMo 39A Mountie Stock Sitting 37* Rain Fed 36gr HP bulk 2.882" 1965


Magnified John Wayne Style
Shooter Model Sights Position Conditions Ammo Score Notes
1st -JohnMCL 39AS Leupold 4X RF JW 50* CCI Mini Mag 0.896 2006
2nd -DJR 39AS Burris 6-8 x 40mm JW calm 20* Remington HV HP .909" 2007 vintage
3rd Fast Frank 39AS Leupold 3-9X40 JW Overcasts Win Xpert 2.228" 2002


Magnified Freestyle
Shooter Model Sights Position Conditions Ammo Score Notes
1st-DJR 39AS Burris 6-8 x 40mm Bench calm 20* Winchester Wildcat hp .466" 2007 vintage
2nd-JohnMCL 39A Leupold 4x RF Bench 50* CCI Mini-Mag 0.59 2006
3rd Shaky Jake39A 2.5 Bushnell Bench Remington Bulk 0.932 1977
4-Fast Frank 39A Leupold 3-9X40 Bench Overcasts Win Xpert 1.077" 2002


Unmagnified BONUS John Wayne Style
Shooter Model Sights Position Conditions Ammo Score Notes
1st-Gus3836 39AS Marble Tang JW 32* Fed Champions 9.691" Late1990s
2nd -Jaguar 39A Skinner JW 70* Windy Fed 36gr HP bulk 5.776" 2006 vintage
3rd Mal H 39AS Williams JW 72 Clear Lapua multi-match 5.23" 1999


Unmagnified BONUS Free Style
Shooter Model Sights Position Conditions Ammo Score Notes
1st- Mal H 39AS Williams Benched 72* Clear Lapua Multi-Match 7.512" 1999
2nd-Gus3836 39AS Marble Tang Benched 32* Fed Champion 7.461 Late 1990s
3rd-Jaguar 39A Skinner Sit/bench 70 Windy Fed 36gr HP bulk 6.784" 2006 vintage


Magnified Bonus John Wayne
Shooter Model Sights Position Conditions Ammo Score Notes
1st-ShakyJake 39A 2.5 Bushnell JW Remington Bulk 9.355 1977

 

[JustsayMo]

I'll float an idea for the March match using the "leaflet" idea. How about a match that let you shoot as many leaflets as you could fit on a 3x5 card. One shot per leaflet until you miss.

Example: Mo draws (or buys a sticker) so big that only one can fit on his card. He gets one shot, hits and his score is ONE.

JohnMcl, DJR, Slugless, Fast Frank, Mal H, Gus3836, and Shaky Jake are all champions and decided they need a bigger challenge so they draw 10, 20 or even more smaller leaflets on their 3x5 cards. They go out and shoot until they miss or plug holes in all of em. Their score equals the number of consecutive hits on leaflets.

So what it amounts too is if you can consistently hit a 1" circle with your 39 you could probably get 15 leaflets on a 3x5 card and the max score you could get would be 15. As soon as you missed or doubled up on another bull the shooting stops and target is scored by the number of bulls hit.

10, 25, 50 and 100 yard divisions.

 

[JustsayMo]

Oh and I'm all for an "outlaw" class for other rimfire LEVERACTION rifles

 

[AStone]

I can't see pushing 15 percent of the model 39 shooters out because some of us like to shoot pistols.

Frank, I can't/won't speak for others, but I would have no objection to a two-gun match that I couldn't participate in because I don't own a .22 pistol/revolver (yet).

I suspect most (all?) in the club would agree with that. (Sour grapes don't own 39s. )

I mean, I'd like to race a BMW, but I don't own one, but I'm not going to tell others they can't.

I think a two-gun 39/.22 handgun match is a great idea. I encourage its development. And someday, I'll get to play too.

Nem

 

[Fast Frank]

I'm shocked!

I was expecting a spanking like the one I got last time!

Now I have to:

1. Buy my buddy a beer for lending me a winner of a rifle.
2. Get something done with the parallax situation on mine.



Here's some interesting stuff:

Top five group sizes-

1. DJR with a .466 (1.86 MOA)
2.JohnMCL with a .590 (2.36 MOA)
3. Fast frank with a .785 (3.14 MOA)
4. Mal H with a .865 (3.46 MOA)
5. Shakey Jake with a .932 (3.72 MOA)

Newest gun in the match-
Angus Lincoln's rifle is listed as "New". Is it an '08? DJR's rifle is an '07.

Oldest gun in the match-
The borrowed 1950 "House Fire Rifle".

The winning rifles(in order of appearance):

1958
1950
2006
2007
Late '90s
1999
1977

Winning ammos (In order of appearance):

Federal Gold Match
Mini Mag (2 shooters)
Winchester Wildcat
Federal Champion
Lapua Multi Match
Remington Bulk

The winners sights (In order of appearance):

Skinner
Factory Buckhorn
Leupold 4X rimfire
Burris 6-8X40
Marble Tang
Williams peep
Bushnell 2.5

Just looking at that, I'm thinking there's no clear advantage to the new rifles, or the old rifles.

Also, there's no clear choice of bullets.

I don't see a clear choice of sighting systems, either.

In fact, it looks like any model 39 properly setup with any sighting system and shooting a bullet it likes can be a winner!

SPECIAL THANKS TO JUSTSAYMO FOR PUTTING THIS POSTAL MATCH ON FOR US!

 

[Mal H]

It is truly an honor to have won with a rifle using a bench rest and shooting the largest group of the bunch!


(Hey! Wait a second! Are they all laughing at me for winning that category?)

 

[Fast Frank]

I mean, I'd like to race a BMW, but I don't own one, but I'm not going to tell others they can't.

Yeah, but what if you did have a BMW, and you raced it with the BMW club, and crossed the finish line first, only to watch the third place guy get the trophy because he also owned a fast Honda motorcycle.

Would that seem fair to you?

Like you, I think it would be great fun to do a two gun shoot and I'm willing to take whatever spanking you guys can give me.

I just don't want to see anybody feel gypped or left out.

I'll go with the group on this- if you guys want to do a two gun shoot, put my name in the hat.

I'll be your Huckleberry!

 

[AStone]

SPECIAL THANKS TO JUSTSAYMO FOR PUTTING THIS POSTAL MATCH ON FOR US!

Hear hear.

Well done, Mo.