Laid down the law on my anti-gun girlfriend...success!

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Heavens forbid that anyone should consider the context in which a statement is made. I wonder why noone starts screaming in my ear when I make a sweeping generalization about "men" or "criminals" which i do on a nearly daily basis, and I am nowhere near being alone.

Of course, as we all know a statement is only politically incorrect when it includes a group that a person of a particular mindset belongs to it.

Words mean things. Despite being "shrill" and "PC," I'll continue to call people on it when they make offensive comments -- especially when I personally am included in the group at which the offensive comments are aimed.

Perhaps if the word "especially" were replaced with "exclusively" this statement would be a little more accurate.
 
Forget it. I'm done here.

Yeager, if you'd read even a smattering of my posting history, you'd know what a damnable lie it is.

pax
 
Mr Yeager,

I have never met you, but have read your posts with interest for several years now. Some I agree; some not.

In this case, you are fighting a losing battle. You will not and cannot win. Quit now. You may not choose to reflect and apologize (though you should), but you should quit.

You have pushed a button on pax. A button you may not have known was there, but you pushed it. Trust me, in this particular case, that same button exists on a lot of people (and not exclusively on women). It is not a matter of PC. It is a matter of OT.

Pax has quit. Perhaps she chose to give up on you. You should quit. Now. You can call it a win, a loss, or a draw. Call it what ever you wish. Pax has the power to lock this thread, but has not. If I had the power to do so, I would.
 
back on the subject of the post

jlbraun - great so far. Now you need to get her to not be afraid of guns or guns in the house. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and most likely don't need my advice but, here goes anyway.

It may be a good idea (you are probably way ahead of me on this) to let her know how you make your firearms "safe". This can mean when you are gone so you don't come home to a burglar holding your gun on you. Also, to mean when friends family, aquainteces (sic) vist so they don't get into anything they shouldn't. If children visit, etc.

I have found that most gun fears are unfounded fears of the unknown and false information. If your friend learns how guns can't just go off by themselves or won't fire if they are dropped and she sees how you safely store them, etc. you may be able to help her overcome her fears.

Good luck and good post.
 
good job brother and I wish you best of luck,

I tried converting an anti girlfriend earlier this year, it was a big no go, so I called that quits, but I recently met a girl who is absolutely phenominal, she actually approached me, all because of my motorcycle, we have a ton in common, we take rides on my bike all the time, we cook for each other and all that, I spent the night at her parent's house last night now that we're back from school, and I carried my 1911, I asked her if it would be a problem to bring it into the house, didn't want to offend parents. no need, dads a gun nut too

long story short, she had me unload it so she could check it out, very cool, she had me give her some tips on stance and grip, she told me if I had brought more ammo with me she would have skipped us having some fun to go out and shoot:D , now I'm all up for both, but next time I go down I'll have to bring enough ammo. :D
 
Now get her a 22LR rifle to plink with and you can start the conversion process.

I just remind my wife the cost of the horses each month and she can't say a thing! :evil:
 
The girl has indeed done a strategic withdrawal.

Guns in the house are OK, but... no ammunition in the house, car, or shed. The previous comment about boundaries has been turned - it's now "using guns for defense falls into both our spheres because it affects me too" and is using this to say that because one of us (her) says that using guns for defense is bad, no usable guns should be in our (future) house because one person is uncomfortable with it. She says that she does not see herself changing, and that CCW is right out.

She's afraid that if someone did come in the house, that "someone would die if there's a gun". She's very empathic and can't stand the fact of anyone dying. She said, "well, you can just threaten them with the empty gun, and because I know it's empty that would be OK." She doesn't understand that you can't rely on the goodness of a robber to not kill you.

We've done the entire rotation between "guns are a human right", "heck, even the Dalai Lama and the Pope said that using guns to defend yourself is OK", "I'm owning and storing them safely", "I'm a responsible person, and can be trusted with guns", and she says "You're not compromising. I've compromised so much and you're not budging." "Compromise, compromise, compromise" is all I hear, when "compromise" means "you can't use guns for defense" and this is unacceptable.

Lastly, I have said "Fine. I would be OK with not using guns for defense, but only if you accept that I won't defend you if your life is in danger, because you have removed the tools with which I might have done so", and that gave her pause. "My parents have always said that they would give their life for one another", she says.

Our relationship has gone three years strong, but I have come to the conclusion that I may have to let her go over this. I can't stand where this is going. We agree on all other things, but this is the sticking point.

Darnit. :(
 
I asked my wife about this on the first date.

A friend of mine went through the same thing shortly after we both graduated from high school together. Of course, he was born to be henpecked so he never stood up for his shooting interests.

My compliments to you for standing up for your beliefs even when many would compromise out of the unpleasant situation.

I've been accused of being way too organized on some things, but I asked my wife about guns on our first date. She said she really had no opinion either way. So then I asked her about her philosophical position on killing criminals in self defense and we were squarely on the same page.

Today, almost 15-years later, she is an NRA member and a gun owner herself.

If you do break things off with Your current girlfriend I would suggest you ask all of your future love interests the same questions I did on the first date. Every single one of them. If they give the wrong answer enjoy the evening, be pleasant, and never call them again. It is easier in the long run and will save you a lot of money, pain, and heartache.
 
jlbraun, would you mind an observation from a guy who has been married a fairly long time?

When you "lay down the law" and force a woman to "retreat" you haven't won. You've gotten something, but there will be a price either in favors later or damage to the relationship. Understand that she did something that she was uncomfortable with and which frightened her for you. She considers that a major concession on her part and will look to see how you behave. If you decide that you've made her back down on one thing so you can force the next issue you will be without a girlfriend very soon. And she will tell her girlfriends. Word will get around and you will be a very lonely man. If you tell her (I can't stress that part enough) how much you appreciate what she did and promise to hold up your end by being considerate when something is important to her it will strengthen what you have.

For the love of G-d don't try to win points with logic. Pascal said very wisely "The heart has its own logic, which knows nothing of logic."
 
jlbraun,
While you may think that the point is settled but I think it’s unlikely that you are done negotiating. If her fear is based on emotion rather then logic then I would expect that every time something changes in your relationship you(r) girl friend will reopen the negotiations based on that change (moving in together, engagement, marriage, children). Logic will not over ride emotion.

If you think you've won, then you've lost!


Respectfully,

jdkelly ---Me from May 16th

jlbraun,
I'd hate to see you break up. On the other hand this may be a precursor of your future together. By that I mean spending a tremendous amount of time over a long period time on something that should be settled in 30 seconds.


Good luck!



Respectfully,

jdkelly
 
tellner,

Thanks for your insight. You are correct in that she has made a major concession - firearms scare the #$(& out of her, and having them around but unloaded is indeed a major concession for her, and I will make sure that I recognize that.

However.

If I'm the one that buys, owns, trains with, shoots, stores, learns about, and keeps safe the firearms - all of these are actions that I perform - why does the final decision on ownership of firearms at all suddenly fall into her territory? Why do her feelings take precedence over my logic, multitudinous facts, and perfectly rational desire for security? This does not make sense to me.

The way I see it, she doesn't want to meet the "scary things" in life and I have expressed a willingness to do so - but her feelings shoud still take precedence over mine because she says so. That's a double standard.
 
Life is too short to waste more than a few minutes with irrational, psychotic or manipulative people. I only wish I had figured this out sooner. (Clarification -- not referring to anyone mentioned in this thread, just speaking in general terms.)

Having poor communication skills in the past, I had persisted in relationships where I wasn't sure if the faults were mine or hers. In most cases, the faults were on both sides. Finally, I learned to communicate better. One of the yields of clear communication is a pretty good certainty if the partner shows traits incompatible with me. Once such traits show, a polite but purposeful retreat is in order.

Psycho behavior is not limited to women. Men just tend to be less patient and show it sooner and more overtly. I'd say that, of all the people I know, fewer than thirty have no exhibited disqualifying personal traits. What the "mysogynists" are saying that they are trying to be careful. Pathologies of men are of no interest to them because they aren't planning to date or marry other men.

Deferring confrontations is something that we do also. What do you think all the plans to convert the spouses or dates to RKBA are? The other point is that men, on average, have more relationship leverage relative to women as both get older. Women, however, get more legal leverage if married with children. Thus men try to fight their battles while they have leverage and women defer it till they have a stronger hand. That's not saying anything bad about either, just noting my general observations.

For myself, I will also note that I hold one of THR's moderators as an example of an admirable lady...had there been any physical attraction, I would have proposed by now. Unfortunately, my appreciation of her persona is purely intellectual. So some people do meet my so-called standards, I just haven't met many of them. Moreover, I do not yet meet my own standards for suitability for marriage and family, so I am deferring serious committments until such time as I am happy with myself.
 
Oleg, that's just plain beneath you. She's "irrational, psychotic or manipulative" because she has fears, expresses them but is willing to compromise?
 
The girl has indeed done a strategic withdrawal.
Guns in the house are OK, but... no ammunition in the house, car, or shed. The previous comment about boundaries has been turned - it's now "using guns for defense falls into both our spheres because it affects me too" and is using this to say that because one of us (her) says that using guns for defense is bad, no usable guns should be in our (future) house because one person is uncomfortable with it. She says that she does not see herself changing, and that CCW is right out.

She's afraid that if someone did come in the house, that "someone would die if there's a gun". She's very empathic and can't stand the fact of anyone dying. She said, "well, you can just threaten them with the empty gun, and because I know it's empty that would be OK." She doesn't understand that you can't rely on the goodness of a robber to not kill you.

We've done the entire rotation between "guns are a human right", "heck, even the Dalai Lama and the Pope said that using guns to defend yourself is OK", "I'm owning and storing them safely", "I'm a responsible person, and can be trusted with guns", and she says "You're not compromising. I've compromised so much and you're not budging." "Compromise, compromise, compromise" is all I hear, when "compromise" means "you can't use guns for defense" and this is unacceptable.

Lastly, I have said "Fine. I would be OK with not using guns for defense, but only if you accept that I won't defend you if your life is in danger, because you have removed the tools with which I might have done so", and that gave her pause. "My parents have always said that they would give their life for one another", she says.

Our relationship has gone three years strong, but I have come to the conclusion that I may have to let her go over this. I can't stand where this is going. We agree on all other things, but this is the sticking point.Darnit.

Her arguments are not rational, they are emotional. That's not to say that emotional arguments should carry no weight. They should, if you're talking about "my uncle was run over by a ford, so I can't stand driving/riding in a ford" or "I hate blue rooms... we can never have a blue room in the house". But we're talking about some heavy issues here... your right to keep and bear arms for defense, and your personal safety, and your responsibility to protect her. Having an empty weapon with no ammo available is not a compromise, it is complete surrender. Having a firearm, with the magazine full but not in the gun, would be a compromise. Having both the firearm and the magazine in a gunvault(tm) under lock and key, would be a compromise. Agreeing to carry only under certain circumstances, would be a compromise. A firearm with no bullets is like an ambulance with an empty gas tank. She's jeapordizing your life and her own with this foolishness.

Listen, I think people can talk and work out a lot of issues, if they can make reasonable accomodations or simply tolerate another's idiosyncracies. But what you have here is her total, irrational unwillingness to concede that you have a right to keep and bear a USABLE firearm, that defense against attack is both justifiable and moral, and that you need to put your life at unreasonable risk to defend her while she puts limits on your ability to do so.

When you think about it this way, it appears that this is a person who is unwilling to see and work with the universe THE WAY IT IS and instead insists on interacting with it based on HOW SHE WISHES IT WERE instead. You are staying with this person because she is sweet/cute/pretty/good-in-bed/funny/fun-to-be-around/whatever/all-of-the-above. My personal advice to you is that 5 or 10 years from now, this person is still going to be making decisions that affect you, which are not based in reality and do not take your wants & needs into account. Odds are she will not seem so cute/sweet/fun-to-be-around then. But of course that will be too late since you have a mortgage and a couple of kids together. :barf: If you grow a pair then and stand up for what you believe in (about ANYTHING) she'll just threaten divorce, take the kids and you spend the next 15 years paying child support and living in a van down by the river.

Keep a loaded gun in your bedside table. Get a CCW and use it every day. Do everything gun-wise that she doesn't want you doing. When she asks about it (or complains more likely) just say "Well I tried talking to you about it, and that was going nowhere, so I'm just going to do what I think is right and you can get used to it or leave". When she says that isn't fair or reasonable say "I tried to work out something fair and reasonable, but that didn't happen because you didn't know what fair and reasonable mean. The subject is no longer up for negotiation, sorry". If she throws a fit or threatens to break it off you reply "That brings me to my next topic, maybe we should start seeing other people". You can be a real b@stard about it, you've got nothing to lose at that point, and there is a slim chance that she will see your conviction about this issue and admire you for it. Being nice, sweet and accomodating is what many women think they want in a man. Some of them are surprised to find that having a man they CAN'T control is even more of a turn-on. Either way, you will be better off than you are now - either she gets with the program, or you are free to begin the rest of your life with someone you can actually be happy with.

I've been young and in love and I know what it's like to make all kinds of justifications and ifs/buts/maybes when it comes to someone who really makes your heart sing. Trust me, the head is a much better judge of such things. No one here envies your position, but you have some hard choices to make and I think you've gotten some good advice from some good people here. Sometimes a situation can be turned around, a person's mind can be changed, but based on what you've told us I do not think this is one of those cases. There are plenty of girls/women out there who would love to have a man who believes in standing up against evil in a potent way, especially when it comes crashing thru the door in the middle of the night. Give it a little time, the right one will come to you when you're not looking.

If this is truly "the one" then a few weeks or months after you've broken up with her and moved out, she may call you some day and want to talk about getting back together. (YOU MUST NEVER CALL HER AFTER THE BREAKUP! And if she calls, you NEVER give her any idea that you'd consider getting together, unless she brings it up first - then you be lukewarm about it.) If you're not invoved with someone else by then, you may want to ask her to a date - at a shooting range. Her response will tell you everything you need to know on whether there is a future or not. Sometimes women change when you're away from them, whereas they wouldn't if you stayed. Think about it.
 
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I see no willingness to compromise. Excluding ammo from the property makes whatever guns may be there as effective as a pencil sharpener (i.e., inert mechanical device) for self defense. She doesn't want a husband who will "die for her," but one who will "die near and just moments before her." That's pretty irrational.
 
Whatever you do, don't make her like guns! If you do, you'll have to buy her a pink Kel-Tec, and then a Glock 27, and then a Browning Hi-Power (the FN just won't do), and then an AR-15, and then... :neener:
 
Be careful. I remeber on another forum some guy's girlfriend wanted him to get rid of his after they broke up. She filed a false domestic abuse compliant through her lawyer. Took him forever to get it straightened out. In the meantime the court awarded her one of the two cars the guy personally owned which she wrecked and refused to have repaired. The court even confiscated his guns pending the outcome of the trial. His lawyer finally got the case kicked to a different Judge who saw it for what it was. If she moves in be careful. Good luck.
 
Point of order. We do not live together. We are discussing how things will work when and if we do live together.
 
I told you so - now that's out of the way.

We are discussing how things will work when and if we do live together.

You already know how things will work when you live together. Now you need to decide if there will ever be an "if".

Three days, three years, or thirty years matters not one bit. If you cannot arrive at an agreement. compromise, consensus, resolution - call it what you like - and abide by it, then you have not completed the event. You may want to decide, for yourself and notwithstanding the amount of time already invested in the relationship, the energy you want to continue investing.

You like guns and want to have at least one loaded gun in the house. Your girlfriend does not like guns and does not want a loaded gun in the house. She will "allow" you to have an unloaded gun - but that might be changed later on depending on how she feels later on.

If you are truely firm in your belief, and your girlfriend will not or cannot accept that belief, then you have what D-I-V-O-R-C-E lawyers call irreconsilable incompatability. That means there will never be a resolution that both of you can live with and abide by.

Please see the :banghead: smily, and think of how your head will feel some time in the future when you realize that wall is NOT going to break just because you want it to.

I hope you avoid living out the various horror stories others have had to endure, but history tells me your odds will be slim indeed. However, I am sure we will all be here to hear your tale of woe and will comiserate with you - but there may be some "I told you so"s said.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
Nice to see a guy with balls in this "men holding their wives' purse and shaving below the neck because their girl told them to" kinda world we're living in!

I hold my wife's purse because she asks me to, not because I'm told to. I also consider it the considerate thing to do based on the circumstance.

IMHO, men that don't want to be seen holding a purse have a problem with their masculinity. Maybe that's why they like guns.:evil:
 
Oleg, that's just plain beneath you. She's "irrational, psychotic or manipulative" because she has fears, expresses them but is willing to compromise?

Tellner,

Sorry I wasn't more clear -- I wasn't referring to his girlfriend or to anyone specific. I was speaking in general terms.
 
no one will ever change. By that I mean if no one will change their opinions or beliefs for me, why should I for them? I won't give up my guns for any woman to make her happy. Love me or leave me - the way I am. It works both ways.
 
A helpful (?) analogy:

I am afraid of riding motorcycles. If I married a woman who liked to ride bikes, I'd have a hard time keeping up with her hobby. I would also take a very dim view of her giving rides to my kids except under the most controlled conditions without other traffic. My views on that may or may not be very rational, but they are strongand pretty well set. I feel similarly about horses.

That issue ought to be discussed with mutual olerance and respect. If no compromise can be reached before marriage, it would likely cause severe problems later. If the riding hobbie came up later in life, it maybe hard to discuss but also not avoidable. If you have the forewarning of such an incompatibility, work it out now.
 
Oleg said:
Deferring confrontations is something that we do also. What do you think all the plans to convert the spouses or dates to RKBA are? The other point is that men, on average, have more relationship leverage relative to women as both get older. Women, however, get more legal leverage if married with children. Thus men try to fight their battles while they have leverage and women defer it till they have a stronger hand. That's not saying anything bad about either, just noting my general observations.
No offense, but that's a remarkably astute observation to come across while reading a gun forum - although you may want to keep in mind the Zen principle of "Kill the Buddha", Oleg. What a person believes may say more about the person than it does the actual state of affairs.
 
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